Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Luke 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Though in the form of a reprimand, Jesus was still saying they ought NOT leave the tithing undone.
Brother, I have never heard of these verses used as a validation to tithe. This is one of many things that Jesus said to the Pharisees (likely unbelievers) and Jesus even included tithing here as one of the "weightier matters of the law." Jesus also went to the Temple during His life and ministry and no doubt, kept the Law. Don't you think in these verses you posted, Jesus is clearly classifying tithing as part of the Law and is no way commanding it to believers/church members?!
I know the tithe is, at the very least, an example or a guide in giving. But isn't the New Testament pattern for giving outlined in II Cor. 9:6,7 (sow bountifully...every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give)? If the tithe is still in effect, does everyone have out their calculators on Sunday mornings??
The tithe began before the law. See Abraham and Jacob. Jesus commended the tithe in the above passage. The tithe is the only explanation I know for the verses in 1 Cor. 8:13, 14 - the only system of equity in the Bible where all bear the equal burden is the tithe.
Hello ArchBishop... I realize I will be in the minority on this issue...but there are some pretty heavy hitters for free-will giving, including Ben M. Bogard. I guess I made the mistake of reading after him when I was younger and having two pastors who preached "free-will giving and the tithe as an example, not a New Testament command."
Circumcision and animal sacrifice also existed "before the Law." Shall we bring those forward as New Testament commands also??
II Cor. 8:8 "I speak not by commandment..." This passage seems to be talking about a church's giving, not individual giving (and it is not a command).
The tithe, being part of the Law, also took care of your taxes (wouldn't that be nice). Colossians 2:14 "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross" If memory serves, this was one passage that Bogard used to teach free-will giving.
So, am I out of God's will if I'm not punching the calculator every Sunday?
It's between you and the Lord, my brother. HOw can we be content to give less than a tithe under grace when they were commanded to give the tithe under the law? We should be thankful, bountiful and generous in our offerings out of the wonderful,bountiful and generous blessings God has already given us.
Agreed...free-will giving should never be used as an excuse to "give whatever I want" or give "less than a tithe." Free-will giving (or cheerful giving) corresponds with II Cor.8:9 "...He which soweth sparingly shall reap sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully." I will acknowledge this: Tithers likely give more than people who "purpose in their heart" what to give.
*Jesus said, "If ye love me, keep my commands."
1)Is tithing a command? (If I don't do it, I really don't love Jesus) 2)Is tithing an example or guide in giving? (I'll be in & around it giving cheerfully) 3)Is tithing done away at the cross and from that point on we "purpose in our heart" and give bountifully and cheerfully?
I think I already see where Bro. James & Archbishop stand (unless they want to expand or clarify) and I would like to know where others stand also. I have no "attack plans" or debate points ready other than what I have already stated...I have never been able to settle on nor preach the tithe as a New Testament command, but as an example or guide in giving. If I can be shown otherwise scripturally or even made to consider other ideas, I'm open to being taught. I value your ideas...
Tithing is a precept. The only Bible plan for giving is tithes and offerings. Jesus said they had made what should be the house of prayer into a den of thieves by making merchandise therein. Since the Bible precept is supporting God's work by tithes and offerings, fund raisering schemes are not a scriptural means of funding the Lord's work.
I agree on the fund-raising schemes... (not scriptural nor a good testimony to the world)
I have heard it preached that offerings is that above and beyond the tithe. In studying, I believe (and others too) that the offerings were actual animal sacrifices in addition to the tithe. So,
*Jews would tithe (which paid their taxes also) *Jews brought offerings (animal sacrifices) which satisfied the Law.
Either we are under the command to tithe... OR we are under II Cor. 9:7, OR a combination of the two.
Brother Neal, my answer to your question "Where is tithing taught in the New Testament" is: nowhere. It is not taught as a command of giving for the New Testament church. Paul had several opportune moments to insert tithing to support his teaching on giving, but he carefully failed to do so.
Also: 1)Is tithing a command? No, there is no NT command to the church to tithe. 2)Is tithing an example or guide in giving?No, or at best only in a roundabout or generic way. 3)Is tithing done away at the cross and from that point on we "purpose in our heart" and give bountifully and cheerfully? Yes. It is a part of the law not repeated in the NT. Its presence in two places before the law is no more support for it in NT times than for animal sacrifices which were also made before the law.
To the "heavy-hitters" list might be added C.N. Glover. I heard him speak once at TBI, and he said that in the split of the Southern Baptists and Missionary Baptists in Arkansas one of the main differences was tithing. I doubt one will find many Landmark Missionary Baptists prior to circa 1940 advocating tithing. My Dad said that none of the old preachers taught it, but also that they corrected the young preachers who tried to teach it. I guess some where along the way that changed.
BTW, it is interesting that in the "tither's text" in Malachi, God says you robbed me in tithes and offerings. How so, if tithes are what we owe God and offerings are what we give over and above that?
Most likely, since the Jews were joining the church, and the "Christian" religion was not separate from the "Jewish" religion at that time (they were combining the two into one), the reason tithing wasn't "taught" is b/c it was understood. As to understanding tithing, let us look at what has been said in this post and the comments.
Tithing began before the law with Abraham, and so it can NOT be limited to just part of the law. It is a principle that began before the law, just like the principle of sacrifice (which now we are to give more than a dead animal, but be a living sacrifice).
Second, Jesus DID command the Pharisees DURING the New Testament that they should do the weightier matters of the law, but NOT leave tithing undone. Notice His church was in existence at this time. Why would Jesus tell Pharisees to continue tithing in front of His church? Do you believe He was only commanding lost people should tithe?
Third, all the moral commands of the Old Testament were enlarged by Jesus. He said "It has been said... but I say" and gave the church a greater vision than the law gave.
So we conclude, the law existed before the law, during the law, and during the church age, and if anything, we should give more than 10%, as Jesus expounded more upon the law.
BTW, forefathers can be wrong just as modern men are. Don't revere one man's opinion over others. Just study the Word and throw what men say to the wind if it contradicts God's Word.
Brother Snyder, I don't believe you'll find anyone implied the forefathers cannot be wrong, neither that their opinions take precedence over the Scriptures. I have compared what these men have said about tithing and don't find that it it contradicts God's Word. If you believe it does, you are free to throw it to the wind. Nevertheless, I believe it behooves Landmark Baptists -- if they truly believe the faith was once delivered to the saints and that it has been delivered to us -- to look carefully at something new presented to replace something that has been consistently held through many years. And I do believe that appears to be true of the doctrine of tithing. It appears to me that we are in quite a long line of folks who didn't hold that as the NT form of giving.
Tithing existed before the law, as did many other things. Assuming you are probably a dispensationalist of some sort, I wonder if you consistently apply the principle of picking up all sorts of things for the church that existed before the law? There are two records of tithing before the law in the OT. On one occasion Abraham gave a tenth of the spoils of war to Melchizedek. Fleeing Jacob promised to give a tenth if God would bless him. You mention the principle of sacrifice, and that we are now to give more than a dead animal, but be a living sacrifice. But how do we know that? Because it is taught to the churches in the NT. What we know of what we do concerning giving is also what is taught to the churches in the NT.
You are correct that Jesus commanded the Pharisees to not leave tithing undone -- and that was DURING the New Testament. Yes, His church was in existence at this time. By pointing out that are you suggesting that Jesus still wants us to tithe mint and anise and cumin according to the law? That IS what He told the Pharisees to do.
Finally, you say that "all the moral commands of the Old Testament were enlarged by Jesus." I cannot agree that tithing is part of the moral law, nor would I agree that purposeful cheerful giving is not an enlargement on tithing. Moral laws are laws that are obvious in the very nature of things -- no murder, no lying, no stealing, etc. Positive laws are right or wrong based on whether God commands us to do them -- circumcision, immersion, etc. Is immersion inherently morally superior to sprinkling or pouring? No, it is the right form because God commands it.
Safe to say that tithing was NEVER taught to believers during the ministry of Jesus.
At the cross, the "handwriting of ordinances" was blotted out (Col.2:14). After all, the Law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. The only type of giving taught after the cross was free-will giving (II Cor.9:7)... bountifully and cheerfully of course.
Is II Cor.9:7 the New Testament example for giving? YES or NO
What are the ten commandments? Are not they still examples to adhere to? On the other hand we don't take our kids to the square to be stoned when they've gone out of control. Whether or not tithing is taught in the N.T., I've found it hard to teach tithing with just the N.T. But I still think that tithing is the biblical example. To which on multiple occasions Jesus would comment on the law, and then expound "but I say", He always taught to a higher degree, to take it to a higher level, to go beyond what was previously expected. The widow gave 100% of what she had, that's a N.T. example nobody wants to adhere to.
I know pastors who don't give nowhere near 10%, because they use II Cor. 9:7. I simply can't see that, and I'm not saying that you are. From reading your comments it seems that you're saying that II Cor. 9:7 is the biblical example and that it should be more than 10%. If that is what you're saying, I agree, because I find it difficult to teach tithing, outside of the biblical example. But also find it concerns me that people use II Cor. 9:7 to throw a twenty in the offering plate when they make 5,000 a month. I simply don't think II Cor. 9:7 can be taught without the teaching of tithing.
If someone is saved and they ask me, "Bro. Neal, what should I give?" I have the tithe to refer to as an example and a New Testament directive to give bountifully and cheerfully.
Some teach erroneously that an offering is that above the tithe. Tithes and offerings were two separate items. The tithe and an animal sacrifice (or offering). If one teaches the tithe as a command, then let's don the leather aprons, sharpen the knives, shine up an altar, and get ready to kill the offerings! One shouldn't teach one without the other.
Jesus taught it after the church had begun.
ReplyDeleteMatthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Luke 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Though in the form of a reprimand, Jesus was still saying they ought NOT leave the tithing undone.
Brother, I have never heard of these verses used as a validation to tithe. This is one of many things that Jesus said to the Pharisees (likely unbelievers) and Jesus even included tithing here as one of the "weightier matters of the law."
ReplyDeleteJesus also went to the Temple during His life and ministry and no doubt, kept the Law.
Don't you think in these verses you posted, Jesus is clearly classifying tithing as part of the Law and is no way commanding it to believers/church members?!
I know the tithe is, at the very least, an example or a guide in giving. But isn't the New Testament pattern for giving outlined in II Cor. 9:6,7 (sow bountifully...every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give)?
ReplyDeleteIf the tithe is still in effect, does everyone have out their calculators on Sunday mornings??
The tithe began before the law. See Abraham and Jacob. Jesus commended the tithe in the above passage. The tithe is the only explanation I know for the verses in 1 Cor. 8:13, 14 - the only system of equity in the Bible where all bear the equal burden is the tithe.
ReplyDeleteHello ArchBishop...
ReplyDeleteI realize I will be in the minority on this issue...but there are some pretty heavy hitters for free-will giving, including Ben M. Bogard. I guess I made the mistake of reading after him when I was younger and having two pastors who preached "free-will giving and the tithe as an example, not a New Testament command."
Circumcision and animal sacrifice also existed
"before the Law." Shall we bring those forward as New Testament commands also??
II Cor. 8:8 "I speak not by commandment..."
This passage seems to be talking about a church's giving, not individual giving (and it is not a command).
The tithe, being part of the Law, also took care of your taxes (wouldn't that be nice).
Colossians 2:14 "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross"
If memory serves, this was one passage that Bogard used to teach free-will giving.
So, am I out of God's will if I'm not punching the calculator every Sunday?
It's between you and the Lord, my brother. HOw can we be content to give less than a tithe under grace when they were commanded to give the tithe under the law? We should be thankful, bountiful and generous in our offerings out of the wonderful,bountiful and generous blessings God has already given us.
ReplyDeleteAgreed...free-will giving should never be used as an excuse to "give whatever I want" or give "less than a tithe."
ReplyDeleteFree-will giving (or cheerful giving) corresponds with II Cor.8:9 "...He which soweth sparingly shall reap sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully."
I will acknowledge this: Tithers likely give more than people who "purpose in their heart" what to give.
*Jesus said, "If ye love me, keep my commands."
1)Is tithing a command? (If I don't do it, I really don't love Jesus)
2)Is tithing an example or guide in giving?
(I'll be in & around it giving cheerfully)
3)Is tithing done away at the cross and from that point on we "purpose in our heart" and give bountifully and cheerfully?
I think I already see where Bro. James & Archbishop stand (unless they want to expand or clarify) and I would like to know where others stand also.
I have no "attack plans" or debate points ready other than what I have already stated...I have never been able to settle on nor preach the tithe as a New Testament command, but as an example or guide in giving. If I can be shown otherwise scripturally or even made to consider other ideas, I'm open to being taught. I value your ideas...
Tithing is a precept. The only Bible plan for giving is tithes and offerings. Jesus said they had made what should be the house of prayer into a den of thieves by making merchandise therein. Since the Bible precept is supporting God's work by tithes and offerings, fund raisering schemes are not a scriptural means of funding the Lord's work.
ReplyDeleteI agree on the fund-raising schemes...
ReplyDelete(not scriptural nor a good testimony to the world)
I have heard it preached that offerings is that above and beyond the tithe. In studying, I believe (and others too) that the offerings were actual animal sacrifices in addition to the tithe.
So,
*Jews would tithe (which paid their taxes also)
*Jews brought offerings (animal sacrifices)
which satisfied the Law.
Either we are under the command to tithe...
OR we are under II Cor. 9:7,
OR a combination of the two.
There are other examples of freewill offerings where the people brought gold, silver, and other things above their tithe.
ReplyDeleteBrother Neal, my answer to your question "Where is tithing taught in the New Testament" is: nowhere. It is not taught as a command of giving for the New Testament church. Paul had several opportune moments to insert tithing to support his teaching on giving, but he carefully failed to do so.
ReplyDeleteAlso:
1)Is tithing a command? No, there is no NT command to the church to tithe.
2)Is tithing an example or guide in giving?No, or at best only in a roundabout or generic way.
3)Is tithing done away at the cross and from that point on we "purpose in our heart" and give bountifully and cheerfully? Yes. It is a part of the law not repeated in the NT. Its presence in two places before the law is no more support for it in NT times than for animal sacrifices which were also made before the law.
To the "heavy-hitters" list might be added C.N. Glover. I heard him speak once at TBI, and he said that in the split of the Southern Baptists and Missionary Baptists in Arkansas one of the main differences was tithing. I doubt one will find many Landmark Missionary Baptists prior to circa 1940 advocating tithing. My Dad said that none of the old preachers taught it, but also that they corrected the young preachers who tried to teach it. I guess some where along the way that changed.
BTW, it is interesting that in the "tither's text" in Malachi, God says you robbed me in tithes and offerings. How so, if tithes are what we owe God and offerings are what we give over and above that?
ReplyDeleteMost likely, since the Jews were joining the church, and the "Christian" religion was not separate from the "Jewish" religion at that time (they were combining the two into one), the reason tithing wasn't "taught" is b/c it was understood. As to understanding tithing, let us look at what has been said in this post and the comments.
ReplyDeleteTithing began before the law with Abraham, and so it can NOT be limited to just part of the law. It is a principle that began before the law, just like the principle of sacrifice (which now we are to give more than a dead animal, but be a living sacrifice).
Second, Jesus DID command the Pharisees DURING the New Testament that they should do the weightier matters of the law, but NOT leave tithing undone. Notice His church was in existence at this time. Why would Jesus tell Pharisees to continue tithing in front of His church? Do you believe He was only commanding lost people should tithe?
Third, all the moral commands of the Old Testament were enlarged by Jesus. He said "It has been said... but I say" and gave the church a greater vision than the law gave.
So we conclude, the law existed before the law, during the law, and during the church age, and if anything, we should give more than 10%, as Jesus expounded more upon the law.
BTW, forefathers can be wrong just as modern men are. Don't revere one man's opinion over others. Just study the Word and throw what men say to the wind if it contradicts God's Word.
ReplyDeleteBrother Snyder, I don't believe you'll find anyone implied the forefathers cannot be wrong, neither that their opinions take precedence over the Scriptures. I have compared what these men have said about tithing and don't find that it it contradicts God's Word. If you believe it does, you are free to throw it to the wind. Nevertheless, I believe it behooves Landmark Baptists -- if they truly believe the faith was once delivered to the saints and that it has been delivered to us -- to look carefully at something new presented to replace something that has been consistently held through many years. And I do believe that appears to be true of the doctrine of tithing. It appears to me that we are in quite a long line of folks who didn't hold that as the NT form of giving.
ReplyDeleteTithing existed before the law, as did many other things. Assuming you are probably a dispensationalist of some sort, I wonder if you consistently apply the principle of picking up all sorts of things for the church that existed before the law? There are two records of tithing before the law in the OT. On one occasion Abraham gave a tenth of the spoils of war to Melchizedek. Fleeing Jacob promised to give a tenth if God would bless him. You mention the principle of sacrifice, and that we are now to give more than a dead animal, but be a living sacrifice. But how do we know that? Because it is taught to the churches in the NT. What we know of what we do concerning giving is also what is taught to the churches in the NT.
You are correct that Jesus commanded the Pharisees to not leave tithing undone -- and that was DURING the New Testament. Yes, His church was in existence at this time. By pointing out that are you suggesting that Jesus still wants us to tithe mint and anise and cumin according to the law? That IS what He told the Pharisees to do.
Finally, you say that "all the moral commands of the Old Testament were enlarged by Jesus." I cannot agree that tithing is part of the moral law, nor would I agree that purposeful cheerful giving is not an enlargement on tithing. Moral laws are laws that are obvious in the very nature of things -- no murder, no lying, no stealing, etc. Positive laws are right or wrong based on whether God commands us to do them -- circumcision, immersion, etc. Is immersion inherently morally superior to sprinkling or pouring? No, it is the right form because God commands it.
Safe to say that tithing was NEVER taught to believers during the ministry of Jesus.
ReplyDeleteAt the cross, the "handwriting of ordinances" was blotted out (Col.2:14). After all, the Law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ.
The only type of giving taught after the cross was free-will giving (II Cor.9:7)... bountifully and cheerfully of course.
Is II Cor.9:7 the New Testament example for giving? YES or NO
What are the ten commandments? Are not they still examples to adhere to? On the other hand we don't take our kids to the square to be stoned when they've gone out of control.
ReplyDeleteWhether or not tithing is taught in the N.T., I've found it hard to teach tithing with just the N.T. But I still think that tithing is the biblical example. To which on multiple occasions Jesus would comment on the law, and then expound "but I say", He always taught to a higher degree, to take it to a higher level, to go beyond what was previously expected.
The widow gave 100% of what she had, that's a N.T. example nobody wants to adhere to.
I know pastors who don't give nowhere near 10%, because they use II Cor. 9:7. I simply can't see that, and I'm not saying that you are. From reading your comments it seems that you're saying that II Cor. 9:7 is the biblical example and that it should be more than 10%. If that is what you're saying, I agree, because I find it difficult to teach tithing, outside of the biblical example. But also find it concerns me that people use II Cor. 9:7 to throw a twenty in the offering plate when they make 5,000 a month.
I simply don't think II Cor. 9:7 can be taught without the teaching of tithing.
Agreed...
ReplyDeleteIf someone is saved and they ask me, "Bro. Neal, what should I give?"
I have the tithe to refer to as an example and a New Testament directive to give bountifully and cheerfully.
Some teach erroneously that an offering is that above the tithe. Tithes and offerings were two separate items. The tithe and an animal sacrifice (or offering). If one teaches the tithe as a command, then let's don the leather aprons, sharpen the knives, shine up an altar, and get ready to kill the offerings!
One shouldn't teach one without the other.