I have listed 5 scriptures below (there are possibly more) that are often linked/referenced/used to make the argument that Christ moved paradise at some point after his resurrection.
Matthew 12:40
Luke 23:43
Acts 2:27
I Cor.12:2-4
Eph.4:8-10
Can we really make a strong, scriptural argument that Christ moved paradise?
Also, since the Bible mentions a "first heaven" and a "third heaven," wouldn't paradise have to be the "second heaven," even though the Bible never uses the phrase "second heaven."
Paul wrote in II Cor. 12:2,4 "...such an one caught UP TO the third heaven...how that he was caught up INTO paradise..." There is a difference between being "up to" something and being "into" something, right?? If paradise is not the second heaven, what or where is the second heaven?
BTW, the picture is just for humor. I took it while on a kiddie train ride at Royal Gorge in Colorado. Please don't accuse of me of promoting gambling or rolling the dice to get to paradise!
ReplyDeleteI would challenge the philosophy that the words "up to" don't mean that he didn't get into...for example if I went to visit at the nursing home I went up to the nursing home to visit sis. marie...did i enter in..yes. It is just conversational language.
ReplyDeleteFurthermore...the 3rd Heaven is the abode of God. The first Heaven, according to the Genesis account of creation is where the birds and airplanes fly. The Second Heaven is what we know as outer space...the home of the planets, solar systems comets and the such like. Again, all of this is clearly taught in Genesis 1.
Now concerning Paradise being moved. The Scripture also says that Hell enlarged itself. I take this to mean that before the RESURRECTION of the Lord the souls of the saved went to this place called paradise. When Christ died, he went to paradise (as he told the Thief on the Cross) then he arose and leading CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE. I take this to mean that this is when he moved paradise.
This is my opinion but it seems to fit.
btw...i'm really struggling with your challenge...NO ALLITERATION! I am going to try and see how the Lord leads me to preach this Sunday's message concerning the Character of the Christ...wow...even that is alliterated...maybe I need a 12 step program for alliteration intervention (oh no..."tion" it is even BACK door alliteration! I have a problem HELP!!!!!
I would beg to differ that "up to" and "into" mean the same thing. You can walk up to a pasture and look over into it. Or you can go into the pasture.
ReplyDeleteJesus stated, "no man hath ascended up to heaven.." (John 3:13). Which heaven was he referring to?
In Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." So did He not create one of your heavens Big J??
I don't see the distinction between heaven (in our atmosphere) and heaven (outer space).
Therefore, based on where Paul was in II Cor. 12 (paradise), it would seem that Paradise is the second heaven.
Or would you maintain that Paul was in outer space?? :)
As far as alliteration, you can go to an AA meeting. Alliterators Anonymous...
there you will have to become
I.Aware of your problem
II.Acknowledge your addiction
III.Admit you need help
IV.Act accordingly
Let's give it a whirl. First, the word "heaven" when used in the Bible (which I assume is the word under discussion must be defined. Webster's 1828 (the closest to the English use of the word we have) states,
ReplyDelete"1. The region or expanse which surrounds the earth, and which appears above and around us, like an immense arch or vault, in which are seen the sun, moon and stars.
2. Among Christians, the part of space in which the omnipresent Jehovah is supposed to afford more sensible manifestations of his glory. Hence this is called the habitation of God, and is represented as the residence of angels and blessed spirits. Deu 26.
The sanctified heart loves heaven for its purity, and God for his goodness.
3. Among pagans, the residence of the celestial gods.
4. The sky or air; the region of the atmosphere; or an elevated place; in a very indefinite sense. Thus we speak of a mountain reaching to heaven; the fowls of heaven; the clouds of heaven; hail or rain from heaven. Jer 9. Job 35.
5. The Hebrews acknowledged three heavens; the air or aerial heavens; the firmament in which the stars are supposed to be placed; and the heaven of heavens, or third heaven, the residence of Jehovah.
6. Modern philosophers divide the expanse above and around the earth into two parts,the atmosphere or aerial heaven, and the etherial heaven beyond the region of the air, in which there is supposed to be a thin, unresisting medium called ether."
I know Webster isn't Bible, but he did write the dictionary to help English speaking people understand the Bible, and the KJV is written in English Webster knew better than we do. So, what do we conclude from his definitions (which I will back up with Bible verses a little later.)
First, there are three heavens according to philosophers AND Jews, being: #1 Atmospheric, #2 Spacial, and #3 Throne-room.
PROVE IT! For the non-Gappers like me, we see Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 stating God created the heaven and the earth in an unformed and unfilled (without form and void) fashion. He created (obviously) outer space and a formless mass of water. It wasn't until day 2 He created the firmament (space/expanse) between the waters. This air expanse was separating waters from waters. We see an obvious separation between AIR and SPACE. We still have such. We know the difference between what we breath and what composes outer space. Even looking up, we know the difference between clouds and stars. The Jews knew this about the OT, and even philosophers and pagans got this part right.
So we see two heavens, the first heaven/firmament/space/expanse = air. The second heaven/firmament/space/expanse = outer space. I'm not sure if anyone is following my science lesson. SO far, the Jewish point-of-view, the non-Gapper point-of-view, and the philosopher point-of-view and the Webster point-of-view all suggest first heaven being air, the second being outer space. You can also use lexicons in the Hebrew, or just reread Genesis 1:1 where God created "the heaven" and then 1:8 where God called the air firmament Heaven.
As to the rest, let me take up another post.
We've discussed the first "heaven" which means expanse, and the second "heaven" which also means expanse. We then move to the "third heaven" where Paul was caught up to. God was there, somewhere in that area. We KNOW that the "Heaven" (the place to which we refer as "heaven" where saved souls presently go) has to be located near the throne of God, do to the following verse.
ReplyDelete"Revelation 6:9 - And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"
The altar according to Isaiah 6 and common sense appears to be near or in God's throne room. This is where saved souls are in the present age.
As to Hell, we know it is IN earth. People DESCEND there. Ephesians 4:9 and 10. How do we know it was Hell to where Jesus descended? Obviously, Acts 2 referring to Jesus' soul NOT being left in Hell. So Jesus descended to Hell, and so do others. How else do we know this? At the Great White Throne judgment, the earth and sea give up the dead which are in them. They aren't called from some heaven up in the 2nd heaven or third heaven. The lost are in Hell somewhere in the depths of the Earth.
Am I boring you with facts you already know, yet?
Psalm 71:20 Thou, which hast shewed me great and sore troubles, shalt quicken me again, and shalt bring me up again from the depths of the earth.
So we've established, one heaven/firmament is the air. One heaven/firmament is space. At present time, "Heaven" where saints go resides where God is under the altar. Hell is in the depths of the earth. If you disagree with what I am about to say, you must first disprove these statements above with the Bible.
ReplyDeleteFinally, to tie all of this together, remember the rich man and Lazarus. Lazarus died and was carried to Hell. The rich man was carried to Abraham's bosom. The rich man could see Abraham's bosom, and the only thing separating them at the time was a great gulf. It was a gulf which could be seen across. If Hell was in earth, so too was Abraham's bosom where departed saints went. Since they are presently under the altar, Heaven must have "moved."
As to other Scriptures, I agree with you on Ephesians 4:8-10. When did Jesus set captivity captive (move those in one holding place to another holding place)? I can only guess it was sometime before He rose. This is JUST a guess. Why?
Remember the dead saints rose up and walked around on earth? I assume Jesus was doing some sort of moving captivity. Don't make me stand on that limb, but I would think He ascended to sprinkle the blood on the mercy seat some time during the three day/three night vacation. He first descended into the Hell area, then ascended to lead captivity captive. Otherwise, I don't know how the souls were moved from Abraham's bosom in the midst of the earth to under the altar where they presently reside.
Finally, the modern meanings of "up to" and "in to" will be different than the original intent. Good luck on finding someone who can help you with that.
ReplyDeleteGood points, but the Jews were and are not always correct, and modern philosophers are routinely wrong (especially about the ether).
ReplyDeleteIt is obvious that heaven and heavens are at times used interchangeably in the scriptures.
Clearly, Genesis 1:1 (In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth) is a summary statement including ALL that God created.
Therefore in Gen.1:1, heaven (singular)
includes what my esteemed brethren are calling first and second heaven.
Rev.21:1 states, "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the FIRST HEAVEN and the first earth were passed away.."
This verse, as a singular description of heaven, surely includes air and space. Why? Because man (sin) has been in space. It must pass away also.
Granted, II Peter 3 describes that the "heavens shall melt away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with a fervent heat..."
(Here heavens (pl.) is used, thus the interchangeable use of heavens and heaven)
An intelligent, spiritual, scholarly father in the ministry taught me that air/space was often inclusive in the scripture as the first heaven, that the third heaven was the abode of God, and that the second heaven, though not named as such, was actually paradise, based on II Cor. 12:1-4.
The force is strong with you guys thus far, but you have yet to shatter his argument, IMO.
He could be wrong and you brethren could be right...
Also, is John 3:13 still true?? "no man hath ascended up to heaven"
I reject your reality of man having been in space and substitute my own that no such thing has ever happened. Now what?
ReplyDeleteYour whole idea that space AND air are the same heaven CAN NOT BE SO scripturally, since the firmament God placed on day 2, He called Heaven. Space already existed when he created this new air He called Heaven. This is OBVIOUSLY separate. Also, you haven't addressed at all the question concerning "heaven" moved, and the rest of my arguments about the souls being in the depths of the earth before Jesus, and under the altar of the throne room of God in Revelation.
One more thing. Your idea that the verse includes space is illogical reasoning. We can use other scriptures to show that since the "elements" pass away, so too does space. This shows that the whole sin in space thing is already taken care of in another scripture. Just because the verse about the first heaven being melted away doesn't mention it doesn't make the first two heavens the same. That type of reasoning is the same argument from silence the pre-tribbers use.
ReplyDeleteFirst of all Bro., I didn't address your stance on paradise moved because I agree with it.
ReplyDeleteSecond, you don't really think man walked on the moon in some Hollywood studio somewhere do you?
Third, how is it illogical reasoning? I have used verses that refer to air & space as heaven (singular). I know there are verses that refer to them as a plurality (heavens).
Argument from silence? Ouch. I have been wounded.
Also, you cannot prove that space existed by Day 2. It is NOT obvious. If it did, the stars were not there until Day 4. So space with nothing in it, is....well, NOTHING.
ReplyDeleteIf space didn't exist, how did light? Space, or "expanse" (AKA "heaven") had to exist since God created the "heaven" and the earth. How could "heaven" not exist when God created it? I said it was obviously separate, b/c it is illogical to me to create heaven in verse 1, and then create it again on the second day. Why would He create the same heaven twice, and what happened to it the first time? You'd be getting dangerously close to a gap theory if you linger on the thought that God created the heaven and earth in verse one, and then recreated it in the seven days. If that is your position already (the gap theory) then I can no longer discuss any of this with you. It'd take another whole post to discuss that subject before we could continue this one.
ReplyDeleteNow, concerning the "illogical" comment I made, I'm sorry it wasn't clear. I meant that to say that in reference to the following quote.
"Rev.21:1 states, "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the FIRST HEAVEN and the first earth were passed away.."
This verse, as a singular description of heaven, surely includes air and space. Why? Because man (sin) has been in space. It must pass away also."
Notice you said the verse, being singular, had to include air and space, b/c man had been in space and it must therefore also pass away. This is saying that BECAUSE space is going to pass away, and the word "heaven" here is used in the singular, it MUST include space. This is the argument from silence to which I was referring. The verse could VERY well only be referring to the first heaven (airy/sky/atmospheric) and be silent as to the second heaven (space) IF this is the correct numbering of the heavens. It COULD mean it your way, but it COULD just as easily mean it the way I'm saying also. The silence does not argue for or against you, or me.
So, I leave with this question then. Do you agree the "heaven" created in verse 1 is different than the "Heaven" on day two?
I see verse 1 as a summary statement of all that God would do (or did do) in the successive verses.
ReplyDeleteSince in v.14, God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven...", I will admit that the firmament was likely already there for Him to put the stars in.
You can call that the second heaven if you want, but nowhere does the scripture refer to it as such. Quite often, air & space are simply called heaven (singular).
My original question was : "wouldn't paradise have to be the second heaven?"
This is based on Paul being caught "UP TO" the third heaven, but being "INTO" paradise.
Wouldn't your line of thought require that Paul was in outer space (your second heaven), thus contradicting the scriptures?
No. Not at all. Your modern play-on-words with the "up to" again is neither an argument FOR or AGAINST either side. It COULD be seen that way, or COULD be seen as caught up to (to being into). If we say we go up to the sky, we mean into the sky. In my opinion, the easiest understanding of that phrase is into. If I'm caught up to the first heaven, would you think that means I'm caught up to the ground? Or if I'm caught up to the second heaven, would that mean I stop short? In my opinion (OPINION), it means into. Greek and English give neither side extra credence. Knowing the Greek, I'd love to say it supports my side, but it supports neither, as both are credible arguments.
ReplyDeleteI think since the "second heaven" is never mentioned, it is a pointless argument.
If your original question was "wouldn't paradise have to be the second heaven?", my answer would have to be no, since John saw the souls UNDER THE ALTAR, obviously in the same throne room of God. Everything He saw there was throne room. Nowhere does he distinguish where the souls were being a separate place (especially throughout the rest of Revelation.) Unless of course you assume Jesus moved them to some second heaven to which you refer, and then again to the throne room later? Also not mentioned in scripture. While possible, it is adding too much unnecessarily for my taste.
Post Script: Concerning "heaven" referring to both in the singular, you have not proved this yet. It can only be proved (so far) if you believe as you do. If you believe as I do, you don't even see it even a little. I see "heaven" singular referring to either space or air. Never both. We also see it plural. That is interesting and might tell us something.
ReplyDeletePost Post Script: "heavens" from Hebrew is DUAL, not plural. Something else that might help us.
ReplyDeleteIf I say I walked up to the pasture, it doesn't imply that I walked into it.
ReplyDeleteTwo ways of looking at things I guess...
I may need more time (a lifetime) to come to grips with subjects like this....appreciate your insights and even though I counter, I consider what you are saying and need to chew on it for awhile.
I agree "walking up to" a pasture is different than walking into a pastor. But something you need to realize in this selection is "up" is a preposition implying direction, whereas "walking up to" a pasture is a modern English phenomenon which does not follow the rules of grammar or proper preposition usage. That's like if the Bible said "Jesus was cool." We might argue there is a difference between the word "cool" and "cold" and that the word "cool" implies some form of popularity or greatness. The problem is we are using a modern term to understand a 1611 definition. Take each word literally, and you'll find if you are "caught up to" the skies, you are in the skies. You also find "to", "into", and "towards" can often be used interchangably with one another. I also appreciate yours and do the same on everything I read. I just can't announce I'm considering it to everyone b/c then my arguments would be considered null and void.
ReplyDeleteI guess the easiest way to solve this would be to do a search on your Bible program for the phrase "up to" and see which way it is used most often. This would help you make a more informed decision. Let me know of your findings.
ReplyDelete