If you are attending the National Meeting, please feel free to post your comments/observations/updates/summaries here.
For those of us not attending, it would be nice to know what is going on.
After the meeting, if you would like to post your perceptions, let them fly.
God bless,
Brother Adrian
It's 9:45pm Monday night. I thought this was going to be a vacation for the first day. After we got here, however, we began by getting our stuff to our room. We then took a breather from the long drive. 6:30pm-8:00 was Reception time, spent getting our badges. We stepped in and out of the ABA schools meeting which took place from 7:30pm - 9:00pm. We then went to eat and just got back at the hotel. There are currently missionaries sharing 3 minutes a piece about themselves for those who wanted to meet them before the meeting. We were hungry, so we will meet them tomorrow at their booths. We will get up early in the morning and attend the Sunday School committee meeting, and all the other meetings throughout the day. This should go on until Thursday after nooon. Pray for the meetings.
ReplyDeleteOn the list, we have the following meetings planned for the ABA. I'll italicize the ones of which Brother Joseph and I plan on attending parts.
Tuesday:
7:45-9:15am National Music Leader's Workshop
8:00-9:30am National History and Archives Committee
8:00-9:30am MBSF council workshop
8:30-10:20am Baptist Sunday School Committee Meeting
9:00-10:00am ABA Camp workshop
9:30-11:00am National Youth Meeting
10:00-11:30am National Women's Auxiliary Workshop
10:00-11:30am Missionary Committee
12:30-4:00pm National Youth Tour
1:30-4:00pm National Women's Auxiliary
1:30-4:00pm Missionary Committee
4:15pm-6:20pm (Visiting exhibits of missionaries)
6:30-9:15pm FIRST OFFICIAL MEETING with music, prayer, welcome and response, Presidents Address, the Annual sermon, Necessary Business, Constitutional changes, announcements and closing with scripture and prayer.
I'll try to keep you posted tomorrow night on what happened with the notes I take. Also, I will give you Wednesday's proposed agenda.
update #1 we got here at 6:15
ReplyDelete6:30 watched espn and the beginning of the College World Series--GEAUX Tigers
7:30 went to eat at Lambert's in Ozark
arrived at Lambert's at 7:45
8:30--we were seated at Lamberts
9:01--spilled sweea on table aller my sister in law
9:30--recieved the chicken fried brontosaurus
10:00--was forced to leave with 4 bites left
10:30--got home intime to see the final inning of CWS--Geaux Tigers win 7-6
11:00--blogging about my first day in springfield.
Tomorrow's agenda--eat breakfast, go to meeting--attend missions meeting, cindy attends ladies auxilliary, after meetings finish--go to bass pro--eat early supper and be back for meeting tomorrow night.
will be blogging for real tmorrow on my blog ay bigjblogosphere.blogspot.com (a link appears to the right on this page)
Until thn...God bless and good night!
I will be posting updates following each session (unless my computer dies). You can find them at www.ebenezermbc.blogspot.com.
ReplyDeleteI'll try to keep them objective and save the analysis for after the meeting.
Okay. First off, let me say this may need to be multiple posts to stay in the word limit. Secondly, let me say the hotel has little to no bandwith left from all the ABA people online probably doing just what I am. Telling others what happened today. This is my comment telling you that I am currently working on typing out the 14 pages of handwritten notes, and I'll post it as soon as I finish typing it.
ReplyDeleteTuesday, June 23, 2009. 8:30 am.
ReplyDeleteBAPTIST SUNDAY SCHOOL COMMITTEE MEETING
I stayed for part of the meeting. Here are the notes I got.
The clerk called the roll.
Wayne Hunter gave the devotion.
The outline I got is as follows.
JESUS IS COMING
Revelation 22:20
Introduction
A. We live in troubled times with many problems.
B. We are living in exciting times.
C. The return of Christ is immanent.
I. God Has Been Forsaken
A. The world is full of false teachings.
B. America is full of false teachings.
C. Even elementary schools are full of false teachings.
II. The Bible Is Still True
A. Genesis 1:1 is true.
B. Revelation 22:20 is true.
C. All in between is true.
III. Look To The Sky
A. Hope in the coming of Jesus.
B. Rest in the coming of Jesus.
Opening prayer.
Motion and second to allow visitors to sit in as guests.
A brother read the Business Manager's Report.
A brother read the Editor in Chief's Report (addressed to the Sunday School Committee)
A brother read the minutes which were adopted by motion, second and vote.
Brethren discussed how the printing press of the ABA is breaking down, obsolete and contains parts which cannot be replaced due to the age and the non-availability.
Also the salary increase for the editor in chief of 5% was mentioned.
A brother read the conference call minutes which the committee accepted as read by motion, second and vote.
No old business.
I left during the beginning of the New Business to check on the youth meeting (supposing it was for youth leaders, finding out it was for young people.) After this, I headed to the missionary committee meeting.
I will post it next.
Tuesday, June 23, 2009. 10:00am-11:30am.
ReplyDeleteMISSIONARY COMMITTEE MEETING
The committee opened the meeting. Apparently at this meeting, one elected messenger from each church gets to vote (but they aren't considered members of the standing missionary committee) if I understand it correctly.
Brother Don Justice opened with prayer.
(By the way, this is a GREAT time to point out that sometimes with microphones, big auditoriums, and speakers voices, I don't always understand every word, so if I leave out something or a name, it is because I didn't understand what was being said. I don't think I'm the only one who had this problem.)
A Sister Rachel sange a special medley of "Because He Lives", "Above All", and "O How He Loves You".
A Brother and Sister Ingram sang a special which was probably titled "Bury My Heart".
A Brother Shepherd gave spoke the devotion.
AND THIS I PRAY
Philippians 1:9
I. Paul prayed love would abound one for another.
A. Paul wanted these people to love one another.
B. We should also love one another at this ABA meeting.
C. Our first Doctrinal Statement is... (see the doctrines at abaptist.org for this)
II. Paul Prayed The Philippians Would Approve Excellent Things
A. We should also evaluate the pertinence of matters..
B. We should discuss important things at the meeting.
III. Paul Prayed The Philippians Would Be Blameless.
IV. Paul Prayed The Philippians Would Show Fruits Of Righteousness.
Conclusion
A. We should follow these four steps at this meeting.
B. If we do, we will be able to say (as Paul did) we are unashamed.
The brother closed in prayer.
Brother Randy Cloud gave a report on the missionary share times.
*97 missionaries present, 14 countries and 16 states represented*
Roll Call of Missionary Committee
Moderator welcomed committee and they passed out materials.
Moderator welcomed visitors.
Brother Randy Cloud gave the Secretary Treasurer of Missions Report. He began with scriptures Romans 1:16, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 and Mark 16:15.
A couple of highlights of that report I thought were the following...
*This year is the second highest supported year for the ABA Secretary Treasurer of Missions of the ABA office.*
*5,062 baptized by missionaries the past year.*
*Over 35 churches organized over this past year.*
*185 missionaries will be recommended this year.*
ReplyDelete*26 states represented by the missionaries.*
*31 foreign countries.*
*16 new recommendations*
*7 for salary*
Will need more $$$ to support them next year if no raises are made.
Brethren gave motion, second and vote to accept the report as given.
Brother Randy Cloud spoke to the report in discussion to let us know the current ABA missionary salary is set at about $40,000, but any sponsoring church can go above and beyond this and NOT take away from it by sending to the missionary in way of benefits such as insurance, retirement, etc.
The previous year, $2.7 million dollars went through the office of Secretary Treasurer of Missions of the ABA.
Brother Randy Cloud made a motion to have offering for the foreign, local and interstate missionaries at Wednesday's meeting.
A brother seconded the motion and it passed by vote.
A brother gave a motion, and a brother gave a second to give absolutely no raises this year to any missionaries on salary or designated funds from the ABA office of secretary treasurer of missions. The sponsoring churches could still give extra. This was due to the economy and some churches which are deciding to stop sending in altogether. He expressed how much he loves missions and hopes the economy will turn and we can double the raise next year. A brother gave a second and this passed by vote.
Brother Billy Shepherd read the minutes of the Standing Missionary Committee which was approved through motion, second and vote.
We were asked to turn off our phones or put them on vibrate for the meetings this week.
About 7 missionaries asking to be brought on to salary or designated funds this year introduced themselves.
The newly recommended missionaries were approved by the body with the exceptions that were made by the recommending committee???
Also approved by the body were the following re-recommended missionaries.
---Those on interstate salary
---Those on interstate designated funds
The foreign on salary missionaries to be re-recommended was brought with motion, second and then discussion began about a brother Solomon C. Travilla for separate vote due to "unresolved issues". Just as soon as this discussion began, time ran out and we were dismissed at 11:30am.
I'll keep typing and post the re-convening of the missionary committee meeting and the rest momentarily.
We then went to eat and came back after eating lunch at Hardees (interesting food.)
ReplyDeleteGetting back, we attended the second part of the Missionary Committee Meeting.
Tuesday… June 23, 2009… 1:30-2:45pm
MISSIONARY COMMITTEE MEETING, part two
We sang “Standing on the Promises”, then Brother Wayne opened with prayer.
Brother David Griffit gave the devotion.
THREE AREAS IN WHICH TO WORK
Psalm 119:17-18, Psalm 145:1-3
Introduction
A. We are in trying times.
B. Today, we have many distractions.
I. Prayer Time Ps. 119
A. Prayer Time for yourself.
B. Ask God what needs changing in your life.
II. Personal Quiet TimePs 145
A. Asking God to show us things from His Word.
B. Applying God’s Word.
III. Praise Time
A. In song.
B. In thanks.
C. In obdedience.
D. In witnessing.
Conclusion
Closing prayer.
Roll call of missionary committee.
Discussion about Brother Solomon C. Travilla.
The supposed “unresolved issues” seemed to me to be (and I could be way off, but this is the best I gathered from listening to the excited discussions) the ex-sponsor of the missionary dropped support of him because he did not want to build a building. Pastor of the new sponsoring church Bethel ( Brother Williams) spoke to explain their church which has over 20 missions do not build buildings. They give arms of support for authority and send finances to their missions, since they were called to start churches, not buildings.
The separate vote for Brother Travillia passed with opposition to let the body know at the major meeting that the sponsoring church did indeed recommend him.
Brother Rombaoa was brought up for a separate vote also. This vote also passed.
Vote passed the recommendations of missionaries / national on salary, the national on designated and the national missionary helpers all passed.
Brother David Smith wanted to propose additional statistical information in the missionary reports. This was postponed until the main meeting.
Next I'll begin discussing the first MAJOR meeting with the president's address and annual sermon.
For some reason, it isn't letting me paste. I typed up the next part, but I can't paste it. Strange how this sometimes works. I'm going to try again in a moment.
ReplyDeleteWe visited the Bass Pro Shop for a moment, then to Walmart (naturally), then to eat at Golden Corral. We met back at the Exposition Center for the first MAJOR meeting, and technically, the first meeting for the messengers of the ABA.
ReplyDeleteTuesday, June 23, 2009... 6:30pm-9:15pm
ABA MESSENGERS MEETING
We opened by singing “Wonderful Grace of Jesus”.
A brother read part of the 52nd Psalm.
Opening… Welcome… Posting of Colors… National Anthem… Pledge to the USA flag… Prayer… Gratitude shown for presentation of colors… Official welcome… Response for messengers
Brother Roger Copeland (?? I think ??) called the meeting to order.
The body gave motion, second and vote to adopt the agenda as proposed. This passed with no noted opposition.
A brother introduced the president, Brother Roger Copeland.
County Avenue Baptist Church’s choir (HUGE choir, maybe 50 or more people it seemed like) sang three songs…
1. End of the Beginning.
2. The Power of the Cross.
3. We Shall See Jesus.
Brother Copeland gave the president’s address about revival, the theme of this year’s messenger meeting.
REVIVAL
Psalm 85:6
Introduction
A. We’ve met to discuss things such as literature… missionaries… etc.
B. The people of God need to look inwardly at their own sins, not outwardly at others.
C. We need revival due to mediocrity, contentedness, power struggle, etc.
D. Revival means restorying and preserving a life.
E. Only God can restore and revive.
“Revival is saints getting back to normal…”
It comes from humility and repentance.
I. REVIVAL REQUIRES RECOGNITION OF THE PAST Psalm 85:1-3
A. Looking to the past to see what God has done in being gracious.
B. To see how God blessed the ABA in years past.
C. Psalm 85:1-3 shows rememebring not only God’s favor, but also God’s forgiveness.
II. REVIVAL REQUIRES OUR REQUESTS FOR THE PRESENT Psalm 85:4-7
A. Request for God to turn us from our sins.
B. Request for God to turn from His anger.
C. Request for God to revive us.
III. REVIVAL BRINGS BLESSINGS IN THE FUTUREPsalm 85:8+
A. Revival brings rejoicing.
B. Revival brings peace between God and us.
C. Revival brings peace between us.
CONCLUSION
The days of revival have not ended. As long as we are willing to follow 2 Corinthians 7:14, and as long as God exists, revival is still a reality.
The body expressed gratitude the speaker by way of hand clapping (oh no, we are all going to burn) instead of shaking his hand at the back door.
... Continued from Messengers Meeting
ReplyDeleteA brother Alvin introduced the speaker.
Gail Holt??? sang an accapella song.
ANNUAL SERMON - THE AMAZING PROVIDENCE OF GOD
Romans 8:28
Introduction
A. The word "providence" is not used in the Bible, but it is taught.
B. Thanks to family, thanks to body, thanks to church.
C. Providence = God's general dealing with His creation and specific dealing with His children for the benefit of man.
D. Amazing, because it seems more so the more we think about it.
E. Providence deals with foresight or foreknowledge.
I. BIBLICAL EXAMPLES OF GOD'S PROVIDENCE
A. Joseph in Genesis 45-50
B. Esther
C. Azariah, Mishael and Hananiah in Daniel 3.
II. GOD'S PROVIDENCE IN OUR PRESENT AGE
A. God no longer preforms miracles.
B. He brought the USA into existence.
C. The speaker's wife's kidney transplant.
D. Death of one and testimony brings eternal life to others.
CONCLUSION
If we seek God's face and obey, His providence will be enough to see us through.
Seek first the Kingdom of God and His Righteousness.
Study His Word.
Romans 8:28
A hand of thanks for preaching the sermon was given.
The committees were named.
Brother Roger Copeland opened the business section of the meeting.
I had a difficult time understand the next part. It went so quickly, and some people spoke so oddly (due to microphones and accents), I may be totally off. This was how I understood the proceedings as I took notes.
Many missionaries did not send their proper papers in on time. Their sponsoring churches recommended that article 1 section 2 of the mission policy be suspended as an exception for these missionaries. Each one passed by motion, second and vote with opposition.
A resolution was proposed to transfer Bogg Springs youth camp and Pine Springs youth camp from ownership of ABA to their respective states of Arkansas and Texas. This was a resolution or proposal or motion or something to let the body look into what would be involved, to pray and think about it. This passed with some opposition.
A couple of amendments were brought up to the Articles of Agreement such as to change wording of 7.2 (or 7.7, couldn't hear) and 9.1. I suppose this motion was to put it on the table and this passed.
Also. if I understand correctly, a brother moved to change article of agreement 3.1 to include "who agree with the doctrinal statement of the ABA" on the end.
Brother Ray O. Brooks proposed a lengthy amendment to the policy. What I caught of it seemed to be saying the sponsoring churches don't need to send 20% for their missionaries to receive 80% from the ABA, and that the standing missionary committee and the missionary committee meeting had no authority or power to attach recommendations in addition to the church recommendations for salary of ABA missionaries. The amendment had motion, second, and was voted down by a majority I think, even though it would have needed 2/3rds to pass. The motion therefore died.
A motion was given that the opening prayer would be included in the minute book, with second and passing vote.
Brother Sutton explained the ABA messenger meeting invitations for 2013 which included Rogers Arkansas, Dallas Texas and Springfield Illinois.
A brother read Habakkuk and another brother closed in prayer.
Many missionaries did not get their finances in on time
After being dismissed, we visited the ABA missionaries booths and stayed there until 10:45ish PM. We came back up to the hotel room, where I began typing this at about 11:00pm. I am finishing up around 12:45. Tomorrow begins another day of meetings.
ReplyDeleteI hope my ears become more sensitive to be able to understand words spoken into microphones, my hand becomes quicker with the pen, and my mind becomes better suited to understanding all this stuff.
All in all, I am tired from a long day, but content. I am going to study some Bible and retire for the night. In the morning, I'll go to more meetings and try to keep you updated tomorrow night if I get a chance. God bless you brethren.
(BTW, to any of those anti-associational brethren, know this one thing. I've not seen a single thing that infringes in ANY way upon ANY individual church, nor a church's authority.)
Thanks Bro. Snyde,
ReplyDeleteI feel as though I am actually there. Just vote proxy for me on anything important. (And tell Michael Reese you have left him in the dust as far as reporting goes)
Bro. Adrian
Wednesday morning, 9:20ish
ReplyDeleteABA messengers reconvened and sang "I Must Tell Jesus"
Brother Reggie Tipton read Habakkuk 3:1-2 and commented on it. He spoke of...
FOUR REASONS WE NEED REVIVAL NOW
1. A place called Hell.
2. A place called Heaven.
3. Because God's Word, His Spirit and His churches offer us help.
4. Because of our rich heritage.
He closed the scripture reading with prayer.
Brother Ryan (____??) Sang "Who Am I" to piano accompaniment.
The missionary who was to preach later on this evening was not able to attend (Livingston Lambert by name).
Brother Joe Helms led in prayer for him and his family.
Brother Roger Copeland surrendered the chair to Brother Louis, I think.
Brother Randy Cloud gave the secretary treasurer's report for this past fiscal year, which highlights I included in a previous report.
Brother Cloud called to memory Brother Wayne Harper in this report.
Motion, Second, to accept the report.
Brother Cloud spoke to the report and presented a plaque of thanks for the dedicated service in the ABA and on the standing missionary committee to Sister Lorinda Harper, widower of Brother Wayne. She accepted with a smile and tears.
The body voted and accepted the report as read.
A motion and second were given to give standing ovation for appreciation of Brother Randy Cloud's 13th year and previous years of work as Secretary Treasurer of Missions. Passing vote with standing ovation.
A short 4 minute picture slide show presentation showing missionaries from all across the world was shown while "I Am Not Ashamed" played in the background.
Brother Shepherd gave yesterday's minutes of the missionary committee meeting.
A brother accused a Brother Steich as practicing open communion, and he should not be approved with the other missionaries. His accusation was that the sponsoring church and the mission (which I guess held membership at sponsoring church?) practice communion as two separate bodies in two separate places.
An exciting discussion was presented.
Basically, this man believed it to be open communion, while others believed it to be closed communion b/c the sponsoring church gave authority to the mission to partake as members of their church, and still others believed (probably the majority by the Amens) that "mission" is just another term for a true church.
Brother Steich was defended by those who spoke with him last night, and so the accusation and motion for separate vote died.
Discussion over Renato Rombaoa was brought up. I must have blacked out here, because I don't have minutes for what discussion was over. I think it was simply this. The sponsoring church requested to keep the salary for him at $700. Their recommendation stands. The standing missionary committee of the ABA recommended the ABA Secretary Treasury give him only 80% of $500 salary. (BTW, these are monthly). So they were not changing the churches recommendation, they were adding an additional recommendation to be brought up later I think. The motion to raise the Sec. Treas. additional recommendation to $700 was denied by vote.
Election of Secretary Treasurer of Missions.
This is where we elected Brother Adrian, but he wasn't there, so Brother Randy Cloud got it. Sorry Brother. :-p (Just kidding, by the way)
The election of Standing Missionary Committee.
Motion and second they stay the same with privilege of substitution.
TO BE CONTINUED...
o give him $700 salary per year as opposed to the standing missionary committee meeting's recommendation of $500.
CONTINUED... (ignore the last part, it wasn't supposed to be there.)
ReplyDeleteElection of standing missionary committee with privilege of substitution passed by vote.
Brother Shepherd stepped down, and Brother Robert Myers was voted to replace him winning votes over Brother Gregg Gibson.
Brother Wayne Harper had passed away, so Brother Dean Grigsby and Eddie Addison were nominated. Brother Eddie Addison won the votes by almost exactly 2/3rds.
Brother Charles Moore stepped down, and Brother Kirk Parnell was elected in his stead.
Brother Charles Murphy stepped down, and Brother Larry Albritton was elected in his stead.
A motion and second were given, and vote approved of rising in appreciation for these men who had served for many years. Applause and standing ovation.
They then took Brother Stacy off the table to recommend him in spite of not getting his information in on time. Motion and second approved taking him off the table, then motion, second and vote also approved him as recommended.
This same took place for Marco Tullio???
This also took place for Brother Bernabe Qualvatis???
Brother David Law was taken off the table and NOW IT GOT INTERESTING.
The motion and second was made to take him off recommended missionary list. It was made mention he had been remarried. He explained his situation which I'll try to put here to the best of my memory. He was lost when he married the first time. He got saved and divorced. He tried to reconcile, remarried, and 6 months later divorced the same wife again. Then, he married a woman and has been married to her for the past 20 years. Much more discussion took place. A vote was held and he was approved 260 to 220. The problem here is the vote was taken multiple times due to proper parlimentary procedures. Many stood up, sat down or were confused it seemed to me. Also, some may have been counted twice for the 260 vote.
The ABA messengers meeting time was over until reconvening, so a scripture was read from Luke about the two disciples on the road to Emmaus and a closing prayer was given.
1:30-4:00
ReplyDeleteWe picked up where we left off.
We opened with "Standing on the Promises" sung by everyone.
A Brother Wilson read a passage from Isaiah 55 and prayed.
The Mattingly Family sang "WAKE UP THE TOWN"
A motion was made to take Javier Moreno off the table despite his lack of sending in proper information early enough, which was seconded and passed.
He was then voted to be recommended after motion and second.
Finally, a brother upset about electing Brother David Law (previous posts) made a motion to which effect it would be retro-active in nature that only non-remarried (to another woman) men could be recommended missionaries for either salary or designated funds.
MUCH discussion.
A motion and second to indefinitely postpone this (until next year I think... not very indefinitely) was made and seconded.
MUCH MORE discussion. Excited discussion. Dare I say heated? I wonder how the brother who was there, the missionary, felt while all this was being discussed. I wonder how all the remarried people felt while this was being discussed.
Here are the highlights of the discussion as I remember.
Some brethren said "We've always done it this way" expressing that baptist view is that remarried men cannot pastor. Some brethren agreed, giving scripture references. One brother even said there is NOTHING more clear in scripture than a pastor being married only once.
I suppose he didn't know salvation and baptism are clear in the scripture, and I suppose it slipped his mind there was such a huge division in the body (about half and half) obviously showing the scripture isn't as clear as his narrow mind thinks.
Now you are probably saying, this report is biased. Of course it is. I was not asked to give an unbiased report, and this isn't the news.
Some brethren stood up and read scriptures in favor of remarriage (out of context, I believe, even though I agree with their point). Some brethren stood up and said "let's not just, lets just be liberal and love everyone despite of their lifestyle" or something to that effect. Basically, nobody did a good job of defending remarriage from a biblical standpoint.
One brother did mention how that the scripture of 1 Timothy and Titus have three possible understandings, thus making it NOT clear. They are...
A pastor MUST be married, and an unmarried man cannot pastor.
A pastor may not be a man of one wife in the present.
A pastor may not be a man of one wife in the past or present.
A person made a motion to amend the previous motion to state not only it be indefinitely postponed, but be indefinitely postponed until next year, and that a panel of theologians study the matter out and present their findings. WOW! This motion died without a second.
This discussion about marriage really had nothing to do with the motion to postpone the issue. A brother called for a vote, and motion and second to postpone the issue was passed.
A lady sang "Break My Heart", a touching song about humility and letting God work in us.
A motion was made to add statistics to the Secretary Treasurer's Mission Report. It would include EVERY ABA new mission since last quarter, EVERY ABA organized church since last quarter, EVERY ABA church closing her doors and every ABA church disbanding.
Second and passing vote.
Committee report was approved.
The Missionary Service Trust Committee sent a messenger to basically suggest they disband and never give another report to the ABA unless needed. Their goal was to help missionaries get overseas with proper government policies. It was begun in the 1960s I think. The churches now have access with modern technology and information to do this themselves. Motion, Second and passing vote.
World Missions Focus was suggested to be included in the ABA scheduled events. This motion and second passed.
ReplyDeleteMissionaries came to front and were shown appreciation.
Philippians 4:19 and 4:16 were read with a prayer.
Services turned over to Brother Jim Crain.
He let brother Randy Cloud take the microphone.
Again, I passed out I guess, b/c I don't know what happened here. I was probably gossiping or sinning in some other form or fashion. Just slap my hand next time people!
Brother Harris gave a camp trustees report.
Motion, second and passing vote to adopt.
Motion and second to keep ABA camp trustees as are with privilege of substitution. Vote passed it. Brother Mike Raines stepped down, and Brother Peeveyhouse was elected in his stead, winning the majority vote over Brother Ron Canard.
*LISTEN UP*
A motion and second was made to adopt a resolution to remove Bogg Springs camp and Pine Springs camp from ownership of the ABA to be given to their states.
Discussion included:
This can not happen b/c the ABA does not own it, the trustees do.
This can not happen b/c the ABA cannot give it to an association, the association would have to have trustees in place to accept it.
This would be stupid, b/c then the churches who attend these camps could not hold any vote over what goes on such as Louisiana camp at Bogg Springs, Oklahoma camp at Bogg Springs, and National Camp week along with the other national camps at Bogg Springs.
This resolution was voted down by pretty much everybody. I saw only 3 hands.
At this point, we were all tired, VERY tired, and getting bored. We looked at the agenda, and not much else was supposed to be brought up that would require our vote other than adopting reports. These would all be adopted, and so we went back to our hotel rooms at 3:15pm instead of 4:00pm
The following reports were to be given and approved after we left.
The chaplaincy commission.
The history and archives committee.
Law enforcement chaplains' report.
Miscellaneous reports.
We would then (had we stayed) heard announcements and a scripture reading and prayer.
We should reconvene at 6:30pm-9:15pm to select a meeting place for 2013, to hear the mission committee presentation, to take up the missionary offering, to hear music and the missionary sermon by whomever replaces Brother Livingstone Lambert, and then hear announcements, Scripture and prayer.
If any of this changes, or if anything interesting happens, I'll take notes and keep you updated tonight.
Tomorrow morning will include the following schedule.
Music prelude
Devotional and Prayer
Special Music
Baptist Sunday School Committee Report
Report and Election of Business Manager
Report and Election of Editor in Chief
Election of Quarterly Writers
Election of Baptist Sunday School Committee
Announcements
Scripture and Prayer.
Then at 1:00pm-3:00pm tomorrow, the plan is
Music prelude, scripture, prayer.
Miscellaneous reports.
Election of speakers and officers for 2010.
Miscellaneous business.
Recognition of New officers.
Announcements
Scripture and prayer.
Adjournment.
You may reach 100 comments yourself Brother, if this meeting keeps going on. heh. Anyway, I may very well be missing some stuff, and if I don't understand what's going on, I record it. Some things go so fast, it's like "What happened?" Other things are fuzzy on the sound system. Still other things make me frustrated so I don't write, I make jokes in my mind.
ReplyDeleteGreat Report.....
ReplyDeleteI cannot believe (yes I can) that all of that discussion ocurred concerning remarriage. And what distinguished "theologians" will decide the issue for everyone?
Point is, a sponsoring church can send who they want as missionary, the facts should be given concerning his life and ministry if necessary, and then an up or down vote taken.
No body of messengers should even be thinking that they can decide this issue permanently for everyone else.
IF THEY HAD ONLY READ YOUR BLOG ON THE SUBJECT, SNYDE, THEY WOULD HAVE ALREADY BEEN INFORMED ON THE ISSUE.
BTW, where are reports/comments from Hebert, Reese and others......? I guess they are too busy cruising the booths with plastic bags collecting pens, stickers, candy, etc. while the meeting is in session. That's what my kids like to do...kind of like "legal Halloween." :)
ReplyDeleteNot sure about their posts. Most likely, they aren't using the internet. We pretty much stay in meeting all day with the exception of eating, and get back to hotels around 10:00pm or later. Also, they may not even be taking notes. I have been told all the minutes will be posted online later anyway, so you may wanna check the accuracy with that when it comes out.
ReplyDeleteOKAY, time to begin posting the report for tonight's meeting.
6:30pm-9:30ish, Wednesday Evening.
ABA messengers reconvened.
I walked into the convention center about fifteen minutes before it began, and as I walked in was refreshed by the sound of a large choir of 40+ practicing the lovely contemporary song "He Reigns".
They stopped, and about ten minutes later, the entire group was invited to sing "Standing on the Promises".
Brother Roger Copeland, president and moderator, called on a brother to give a scripture reading and prayer.
The scripture read was 1 Thessalonians 5:28 and the brother mentioned we have no greater message than that of grace.
1. We are saved by grace.
2. We live by God's grace.
3. In persecutions and trying times, God's grace is sufficient.
The brother opened the meeting with a prayer.
Brother Roger welcomed us, and the somewhat large choir sang two songs "Oh Worship The King" and "Jerusalem". These are the titles I gave them based upon their choruses.
The congregation then sang "All Hail The Power".
We elected the 2013 meeting place to be Dallas Texas with a 600 something to 400 something vote.
Brother Charles Murphy presented the missionary committee presentation which included a video with picture slide show and background music, "Go Tell Everyone". The presentation lasted about 20 minutes.
Six men (I think all missionaries) were selected, one from each continent. While they did so, the piano played softly "He Reigns" in the background.
A Brother John Wyoming represented Africa, expressing 50 countries in Africa, but only 5 American missionaries and only 4 nationals (Africans) with works in the entire continent. It touched my heart with great sympathy for the African nations.
Next, Asia was represented with emphasis on Japan.
Third, a Brother Jim Black represented Europe expressing 830 million in population, with 45 nations and less than 10 missionaries there.
*NOTE* When I say missionary or mission, I am referring to ABA works.
Australia was represented as a continent with 95% who had never graced a church's door.
North America was represented fifth. Emphasis was placed on Idaho, with only five ABA works,
New York with only four works,
Wyoming and Nevada with only 3 works,
Minnesota, Wisconsin and Utah with only two ABA works,
Vermont, South Dakota, New Jersey and New Hampshire with only one ABA work
and
North Dakota and Connecticut with NO ABA works.
From this point forward, my mind began dwelling upon mission work, specifically in New York City, or a large city in that area.
All while South America was presented, I was thinking about how when I think of NYC, I think of murders and thieves. I think of muggers. I think of danger for my family. I also think of a city that needs Jesus more than most cities (if I can say that and you understand what I mean, that they are so terrible, there is a greater need for Him).
The missionaries were called up front and flooded the area from one side of the convention center to the other. The choir sang "He Reigns".
ReplyDeleteWe watched a VBS 2010 video while taking up offering for the missions. The missions offering taken up at this meeting was over $10,900.
Brother Mark Harris introduced the speaker.
Brother Caraldo Carrion (probably spelled otherwise) with a strong accent (I believe Mexican) gave the mission message.
GIVE ME A MAN
1 Samuel 17 (all)
Introduction
A. I'm scared to death to preach here.
B. Thanks to all, my wife, kids and friends.
C. We are here to worship.
D. Why am I scared? I'm among friends. You won't hurt me. I hope!
E. While at the seminary in Little Rock, I had trouble learning English. The third year there, I realized it is because the people in Arkansas do not speak English. It is another language altogether.
I. The Challenege
A. Goliath challenged God's people.
B. God has a challenge for the preachers here.
C. Staying in Arkansas isn't much of a challenge.
D. We need to seek those in our cities of other nationalities and other religions, witness to them, and they will go back to their countries knowing the gospel.
II. The Valley of Elah (The decisions)
A. Israel had to make a decision, because they were being indecisive.
B. Goliath called out, "Give me a man".
C. God calls out now, "Give me a man."
D. Is there a man here tonight who will answer Here am I, and go to the challenge of Iraq, Iran, Egypt, etc.
E. Muslims are not afraid to decide to come to America amidst their greatest enemies to give their lives, are we afraid to lose our lives? Don't we preach "To live is Christ, to die is gain." But we are scared.
III. The Enemy
A. Too much emphasis is given to the enemy.
B. Jesus explained the battle is taking place by an offensive church and the battle takes place at the gates of Hell.
C. We need not to look at the enemy, but rather be "looking to the Author and Finisher of our faith."
I may have missed MUCH of this message also, as my mind began dwelling on how Islamic people are enemies of Christ, and enemies of the cross. How they are shunned by Christians, and the missionary said we have 0 missionaries to their Islamic areas. How they are shunned for being enemies of the cross and of Christ, and how it was our sins that put Him there and how before salvation, we were exactly the same. I wondered if God will ever send me to the Islamic groups in America or elsewhere. I wondered if I'd read the Koran out of coincidence, and The Idiot's Guide to the Koran out of coincidence, or if it was the providence of God. I wondered if most ABA people knew the majority of Islamic people are not extremists, that those are only the ones the news chooses to broadcast since they are the ones making the largest impact on our American society.
A motion, Second and vote passed to have the Mission Message added to the minutes for next year's ABA book.
Brother Nathan Luellan read a scripture from Numbers about humility, and closed in prayer.
Bro Hebert and Bro Gholson are at the IHOP. I garauntee it.
ReplyDeletegaurantee. eh. Spelling not my thing. Thanks for the updates, Bro. Snyder.
ReplyDeleteInteresting statistics on where we do & do not have ABA works. I don't believe we have an ABA work in Sydney, Australia (population over 4 million) If we do, someone correct me.
ReplyDeleteAnywhere in Europe would be a challenge. Much of Europe is not only apathetic towards Christianity, but hostile (except for the stuanch Catholic countries which is another issue altogether)
New York, Bro. James? Of course there is a muslim population there so...
So I will take my zeal for mission work back to Hamburg, and win souls there, and hopefully successfully encourage others to do so as well. As long as God wants me there (perhaps 1 year, perhaps 20) I will prepare myself for mission work that I know He has for me somewhere down the road. I will perhaps attempt to begin learning the Syrian languages, and this way I can read the Koran in it's original language, since they believe any translation is just the equivalent of a commentary. Also, if I do decide to reach out to them in a mission type way (btw, Mission is just a latin way of saying apostle, or one sent), then I'll need to know their language so I know whether or not they are saying "We are going to strap a bomb on your chest." or "We would like to hear more about this love of God."
ReplyDeleteThe meeting this morning is pretty much the way I posted the proposed agenda with a couple of exceptions. We voted to give a 5% raise to the ABA literature, and a 5 cent raise for every book sold including Sunday School, BTC, VBS, Discovery, etc. We voted to give Brother Larry a 3% raise as Editor in Chief, and to give a 10% raise to all the writers. We voted to DENY the motion of a 3% raise to the Sec. Treasurer of Missions, since Brother Randy requested we don't make the raise. His sympathy was that this might cause some churches to stop giving to the missions, and the proposed "cost of living expense" raise would take away from missions.
Bro. James,
ReplyDeleteThe Hamburg souls are just as important as anywhere else. If you are serious about language(s), I've heard that the Rosetta Stone program is great. Our government uses it & a cousin of mine uses it for Arabic (which he is studying at Texas A&M).
Watch it, Brother. You used the word "bomb" in your previous comment. I'm sure the NSA or CIA is now reading through the ABA meeting notes searching for codes and learning about divorce & ministry.
I used the words "bomb", "Islam" and "Muslim". LoL. They most likely are watching me through the hotel window and security cameras, as if I had anything to hide. LOL.
ReplyDeleteIf they are indeed reading, perhaps I should simply say this.
The Bible teaches that all men sin (Romans 3:23) and that means we are imperfect. A just God requires a penalty for sin, and to be just, He cannot allow sin into Heaven. He therefore, sent His only begotten son to the cross of Calvary to die for our sins and take the penalty of our sins upon Himself (John 3:16). The only sin which remains is rejecting Jesus's gift. All you must do to go to Heaven is ask Jesus to save your soul from your sins, BELIEVING with your heart that He will, and you'll go to Heaven. If you reject Him by not accepting this gift and believing in Him for salvation, you will (I am very sad to have to say) not spend eternity in Heaven, but rather in Hell, because you have blasphemed the Holy Spirit and told God you don't want to have His gift of Heaven, the gift that cost His Son to buy for you. (John 3:17-18). I hope you will be saved, whoever reads this, so you can spend eternity in that glorious place with me. To see what else the Bible says about this subject, read Romans 6:23, Romans 10:8-13, and Ephesians 2:8-9). If you have any questions concerning going to Heaven, or just want to talk about it, go to my blog and ask or ask right here on this blog and I know Brother Adrian would be more than happy to share it with you.
I used the words "bomb", "Islam" and "Muslim". LoL. They most likely are watching me through the hotel window and security cameras, as if I had anything to hide. LOL.
ReplyDeleteIf they are indeed reading, perhaps I should simply say this.
The Bible teaches that all men sin (Romans 3:23) and that means we are imperfect. A just God requires a penalty for sin, and to be just, He cannot allow sin into Heaven. He therefore, sent His only begotten son to the cross of Calvary to die for our sins and take the penalty of our sins upon Himself (John 3:16). The only sin which remains is rejecting Jesus's gift. All you must do to go to Heaven is ask Jesus to save your soul from your sins, BELIEVING with your heart that He will, and you'll go to Heaven. If you reject Him by not accepting this gift and believing in Him for salvation, you will (I am very sad to have to say) not spend eternity in Heaven, but rather in Hell, because you have blasphemed the Holy Spirit and told God you don't want to have His gift of Heaven, the gift that cost His Son to buy for you. (John 3:17-18). I hope you will be saved, whoever reads this, so you can spend eternity in that glorious place with me. To see what else the Bible says about this subject, read Romans 6:23, Romans 10:8-13, and Ephesians 2:8-9). If you have any questions concerning going to Heaven, or just want to talk about it, go to my blog and ask or ask right here on this blog and I know Brother Adrian would be more than happy to share it with you.
The final ABA meeting happened also as the previously mentioned proposed agenda. The only interesting things that happened are as follows.
ReplyDeleteAlmost all... or maybe it was all, the committee men and positions stayed the same, except for the speaker for next year.
One brought a motion for the ABA to accept a 22nd and 23rd doctrinal statement. The 22nd would roughly state that all sexual activity outside of marriage of one man and one woman is forbidden by God, and then listed many of the sexual perversions such as beastiality, incest, bisexuality, homosexuality, lesbianism, adultery, etc. The 23rd suggested roughly we believe the only legitimate marriage is between one man and one woman. The motion and second to accept this on our doctrinal statement was tabled.
Also, article 1 section 3 was proposed to be ammended by adding a phrase like "who agree to our doctrinal statement", basically suggesting that the ABA is composed only of regular baptist churches who agree with the ABA doctrinal statement. This was voted down, with voiced opinions saying it was infringing on what churches believed. I personally would have liked it simply for this reason.
We could have ALL the SBC, or many SBC churches join the ABA as "regular baptist churches" and vote to overturn us and take all our money. WHile this is the extreme, think about it. If a few hundred SBC churches joined the ABA (which they can currently do and remain in the SBC), then they have sway over our missions, meeting places, how funds are spent, etc. It can also open up a broad door of letting our churches unknowingly fellowship and associate with churches who do not believe as we do.
This isn't just in reference to the SBC. It is also in reference to those ABA churches, or Independent churches who are CURRENTLY associated with the ABA which practice and believe in open communion, amillenial coming of Christ, calvinism, etc. The ammendment to the articles of agreement would help keep the ABA doctrinally pure (or at least doctrinally pure on the major 21).
Some of you reading this say "Oh, but wait, you are infringing on our churches... ". The problem with that argument is this. ABA is VOLUNTARY. You don't have to fellowship with us. We have articles of agreement that you don't consider infringing on your church b/c you agree to it. Also, do you really wanna fellowship with a church that disagrees with the 21 doctrinal statements? If so, why are you in the ABA? Obviously not b/c we are a churches of like faith and order. Finally, it is no more infringing on a church's beliefs than saying the ABA consists of "regular Baptist churches". Any non-"regular Baptist church" is NOT affected at ALL by the ABA. We do not have ANY authority over anyone, much less non-regular baptists. SO it would be with the ammendment. We would still be the same, with no authority over anyone, and only regular Baptists who agree to the doctrines would voluntarily participate. How in the world is there a negative in this, unless you disagree with the 21?
From a practical point, Bro. James, what "ABA police force" would determine whether or not a church was in compliance with the 21? And what about when the 21 becomes the 22, then then the 23...etc.
ReplyDeleteI see your point and I would like to know that the people/churches I am associating with hold to major Bible doctrines. But as you saw, much of the meeting boils down to missions and money? This is a bold statement but I'll make it... most in the ABA are more concerned about money for missions than policing the ABA for those not adhering to doctrinal truths. They shout "church infringement," but they are not so worried about church infringement when it comes to an amendment like Bro. Ray Brooks' (see your June 23,10:43 post)
Also, I have only recently heard the "21" referred to as some kind of creed. I have always seen it as statements approved by man, but supported by the Bible. They are a summary of our major doctrines and can be nicely referred to when teaching a new church member or answering a question about what we believe and why. But I don't think they were intended to be used as a litmus test for fellowship.
ReplyDeletePerhaps some think otherwise.
First of all, the proposed addition to the Articles of Agreement would have done nothing to change the status quo. The ABA has never used the doctrinal statement and Articles of Agreement as a basis to disfellowship anyone. That was one of the causes of the ABA-BMAA split in 1950. Also, in order to begin disfellowhipping any church for doctrinal error, Article V would have to be changed because it clearly states that the assoication has "no ecclesiastical power."
ReplyDeleteNow, the Scripture which we use to base our assoicated work on, 2 Corinthians 8, uses the word "fellowship". Those who say, "Well...I'll just fellowship the churches that are sound and not fellowship those who aren't." Well, brethren, you ARE fellowshipping all ABA churches, whether you want to or not. The Articles of Agreement says that the ABA is "composed (a whole made up of parts) of regular Missionary Baptist churches." Many Scriptures could be given to prove that it DOES MATTER who you fellowship with.
You said that the 21 are statements approved by man but supported by the Bible. If any were not supported by the Bible, they would need to be done away with. So...if we are to fellowship based upon the Bible, and these statements are based upon the Bible, why are they not a litmus test? These statements, btw, are not the only ones that could be included. If a church cannot agree to the 21, then God help them.
As to whether it's only about missions money, Article V states that the association will "stand or fall upon its conformity to the truth." Truth matters. If it matters, according to the Bible, who you fellowship with, if the ABA is a fellowship, then it follows that there must be some way to protect doctrinal soundness without surrendering church sovereignty. Talk is always about infringing a church's authority. What about infringing upon those churches who wish to only fellowship other churches of like faith and order? I am about to make a broad statement: If we cannot protect doctrinal truth in associated capacity, then maybe it's time to dissolve the ABA and go back to direct missions.
As to Bro. Brook's amendment to the mission policy being an infringement of church sovereignty, the sponsoring church setting the salaries and the conditions for the missionary's work is a heap sight better than saying a church MUST send 20% to Texarkana rather than STRONGLY URGING that they do.
Lastly, why did they table the motion to add #'s 22 & 23 about sexual perversion. I would think that would have been a slam dunk.
That's all for now.
*bold intstead of "broad. Sorry.
ReplyDeleteBro. Jonathan,
ReplyDeleteI am aware that the ABA has "never used the doctrinal statement and Articles as a basis to disfellowship anyone." Bro. James, however,
seemed to be saying that the 21 could be used in this way.
I agree that it does matter who you fellowship with. But again, what "ABA police force" would be used to ensure this "doctrinal purity?" And at what point would church sovereignty be violated?
I agree that the 21 are supported by the Bible. But in us both agreeing that more could be included, it is clear that the choice of these doctrinal statements & their specific wording was at one time or another approved by man. That doesn't minimize them any, it just proves that messenger assemblies can be arbitrary.
Put this way, I believe in the 21 statements. Not because they were approved by some assembly. But because they are Bible truth.
Your statement "truth matters" is a given. What I was simply saying was if there was even one to two percent of messengers who believed something "off the wall" and who attended, gave money to missions and so forth, many in the ABA would not deem it worth the trouble to spotlight them and disfellowship them. Perhaps you & others would like to do that and you would feel better about associated work.
Perhaps you didn't understand my reference to Bro. Brooks. I agree with his amendment as it reflected church sovereignty. You can read my previous comment again in that light.
Lastly (is that a word),
ReplyDeleteThere are facets of state & national meetings that I enjoy & I know everyone else does....awareness of missions & missionaries, importance of spreading the gospel, seeing friends & visiting, etc.
But some of what see and know is occuring is men trying to be somebody, show out, press their points to impress others and simply exist for the seeming pleasure of arguing with someone else. I know that's harsh and not reflective of every preacher, but I know it is occurring. God will sort out the motives of why we do what we do and why we say what we say.
God might be more pleased with our meetings if we added another day and devoted it to having this huge group of talented, informed, faithful preachers spread the gospel in the host city.
It no more usurps authority over a church for joining than the phrase "regular Baptists". It just defines what "regular Baptists" we mean when we say we will fellowship with them. In other words, it takes the SBC churches out of the picture. And it does not infringe on a church's authority, b/c the association is voluntary.
ReplyDeleteFinally, we need no police force. It can simply be by their statement.
For example, if the SBC churches (which far outnumber us) join the ABA (which right now, they can do under the current name of regular Baptists, since it is so loosely defined now), they can vote to change everything since they do outnumber us. Is this right? They could steal our printing press, and change all the articles of agreement. If instead, they must ADMIT to agreeing with our doctrinal statement, then in any court cases, when the changes begin to take place, we have absolute legal right to protect our assets. This is a money issue that might appeal to some.
To me, it's just more about the principle of associating and fellow-shipping with churches who are part of the ABA, and exchanging letters with them, and supporting missions, who aren't open communion, amillenalists, calvinists, full gospel baptists or free will baptists who call themselves regular baptists.
We simply let it be an honour deal. We take you at your word. This would discourage a great deal of false churches from joining the ABA, and keep a great deal of false missionaries from being supported through the ABA.
Who knows, perhaps if every mission had to state they agree 100% with the doctrinal statements (and use KJV, I might add), I might even send $$$ from my own wallet through the ABA secretary treasurer of missions, or encourage my church to do so.
By the way, I did get to witness once (to my shame it wasn't more) while in the host city. Frank claimed salvation, and I was glad to hear it. He did request prayers however, for himself (a UPS worker) who has problems with dehydration while driving the truck in the heat there.
Finally, they probably tabled the motion about the 22 and 23 statement b/c they were tired and would like it worded better, but did not have the time to think of the best wording. After all, who wants the word "beastiality" in their Sunday School book? It is just a dirty, disgusting word. Lastly, I think the best wording for the TWO statements would be something to the effect of "We believe the only legitimate marriage is between one man and one woman. We believe any sexual act committed outside of the confines of legitimate marriage to be forbidden and discouraged by God's Word." Instead of listing a bunch of sexual sins. If we are going to list a bunch of sexual sins, we may as well list them all, and we may have a hundred page doctrinal statement #22. Besides that, if we list sexual sins, we better list all sins in the book like those included in damaging one's body with drugs, alcohol, gluttony, etc.
Bro. James,
ReplyDeleteI understand your hypothetical concerning SBC churches. But the few SBC preachers and deacons I know (my principal is an SBC deacon) have no interest in what Missionary Baptists do and really don't care what we believe. With their HUGE budgets and political infighting at conventions, the SBC raiding our meeting is just something I don't see happening.
I understand the desire for harmony. I just don't know of very many "irregular churches" that are represented each year. There could be a few, but not enough to have any impact.
How would "agreeing to the doctrinal statement" work? Is a church's agreement attached to their letter? Did the church have to vote on the doctrinal statement beforehand or do you go by the messenger's word? What if a messenger says
"I don't agree with the doctrinal statement because it doesn't promote the KJV?"
OR, "We will only agree to d.s. #2 (Bible is the infallible, inspired...all-sufficent, etc."
OR, "Our church agrees with the d.s except for #21. We don't like the way it is worded."
In these and many more circumstances, who decides whether or not that particular church is allowed to have messengers? The truth committee?
Seriously, how would you not only ensure harmony, but enforce it? And how political would that get? And all for the 1-2% which will likely abandon the ABA anyway?
I appreciate yours and Bro. Melton's convictions & concerns....it's just a very difficult matter which would likely lead to a board or group deciding things for everyone....you know, like the SBC. :)
Wow Bro. James would make a great secretary.
ReplyDeleteSecretary Treasurer of Missions...2010??
ReplyDeleteNo board or committee needed at all. Simply require that the church votes, and leave a note in the letter that they must check a box if their church voted to state they are in agreement with the 21 and then go based upon their word. This would simply protect the ABA, and like I said about missions, it would help me support through the office of S.T.M. If I'm not mistaken, there are actually quite a few missions who do not believe in our 21, more than 1%. I could be off on that... and actually I would LOVE to send out letters to all the salary and designated missionaries to find out. I can't, of clear conscience, send money to those who are universal church and open communion, or those who are anti KJV. SO for now, I'll simply pick and choose those I support and send directly to them in ways that won't take away from their salary or support.
ReplyDeletePlease, NEVER elect me into ANY office that would require I attend the ABA meetings, especially in public view bound for public embarrassment.
I Cor. 4:10 "We are fools for Christ's sake..."
ReplyDeleteBro. James....was this your first nat'l. meeting? If so, was it pretty much what you expected?
It was my first national meeting. I didn't have a clue what to expect... I suppose it wasn't want I was expecting. A lot of people got up to the mic and said the same things that had just been said over and over again... as though repeating the same words would somehow convince someone else.
ReplyDeleteAgreed....I was a little mean in an earlier post... impugning the motives of others.
ReplyDeleteThere is much good accomplished at the meetings and it reminds us that we are not the only ones trying to serve the Lord in our little corners of the world.
I just can do without the pettiness & politicking of prima donna preachers.
(Big J would be proud of my alliteration)
Jonathan wrote, "Talk is always about infringing a church's authority." I think this sometimes becomes a bugbear to beat down opposition. Back in the early 1980s when southern associations were astir about the issue of segregation/integration, certain Texas leaders vociferously charged that adopting any resolution on the issue violated church autonomy. In a letter called "Facts concerning a resolution offered and tabled by the messengers of the Shelby County Missionary Baptist Association" the author insisted in his point 8: "The entire issue is one which must ultimately be handled by each local church. Each church is sovereign under God." To that I say amen and oh my. EVERY issue is "one which must ultimately be handled by each local church" but such a cry is not raised unless some leader wants to sweep it under the rug. Present a resolution against homosexuality, abortion, etc. and you won't have anyone opposing it because "the entire issue is one which must ultimately be handled by each local church." Church authority shouldn't be infringed upon, but it shouldn't be used as a threat to end all discussion of a matter.
ReplyDeleteI personally think some people are hung up on "the 21". Once we had 12 things "mostly surely believed among us" and now it is expanded to 21. Should the churches that believed "the 12" but don't like "the 21" be driven out just because a bunch of messengers decided to change the doctrinal statement they were already operating under??
But on the other hand, IF I were going to participate I wouldn't have a big problem with Art. 3.1 saying churches that "agree with the doctrinal statement of the ABA". Maybe here instead of infringing on a church's authority, there is an opposite issue of "infringing on a church's trust". Maybe churches should have the right to expect that those who are participating together actually do agree upon what they claim they agree upon.
Just some things to think about.
Bro. Neal,
ReplyDeleteYou mentioned that perhaps only 1-2% of churches represented have errors in doctrine and practice (I understand that you were just throwing that number out there). The number of churches represented this year was 1,094. That would be about 10-20 churches. In my limited knowledge I know almost that many personally (I don't know if all these still participate or not or still identify themselves as ABA). I know of a church which was organized with one of the elderly ladies who was a charter member who was baptized by a SBC preacher for a Nazarene church. They then gave the arm of authority to establish a mission and members of that church have since joined other area churches. I know of another who has dropped the name Baptist. I know of another church that practices alien immersion (if you were immersed by a Christian evangelical church) and open communion. I know of another church that receives alien immersion (Bible church baptism). I know of another church that bills itself as a "growing evangelical community." I know of another church that has a contemporary worship service (I'm sure there's probably more or many more that have contemporary services or blended services). There have been problems at one of our camps about destruction of property and motorcycles ridden down the aisle. It has been reported that at another youth fellowship, that there were people thrown into the air. Our pastors and youth workers are going to nondeminational conferences. Our own bookstore is hosting nondenominational conferences (Child Evangelism Fellowship on May 21). Others who are prominent are calling the ABA "too sectarian" and proclaiming that "changes are coming." There are those who are debating the issue of how much do we have to agree on to be in fellowship. Bro. Vaughn, this is not aimed at you, but at a different faction altogether. Then there's the pro-modern version bias by some and anti-KJV bias by others. I could go on. I used to think that the ABA was almost perfect and that things like this could not happen here. I still stand firmly with the ABA and still believe that it is a minority, but I fully believe a growing minority.
Maybe there was a reason behind the motion to amend the Articles of Agreement. It would have changed nothing because Article V clearly states that the association has no "ecclesiastical power." However, there is nothing at all wrong with clarifications. My view is that we should not look at who brings it up or how something is brought up, but we should vote on the merits of the amendment or resolution itself. If it agrees with Bible teaching, vote for itn
Many in our work believe that it is not even Scriptural to vote to disfellowship over issues of doctrine and practice. I will frame it this way: I think you should be able to expect to be free to only fellowship those churches of like faith and order. The Bible teaches us that we are not fellowship those who teach false doctrine and practice false worship. How that can be practically accomplished without violating church sovereignty in assocation might be difficult. At the least, churches with firsthand knowledge can bring resoltions (who have no power) to censure a church that strays from the truth. Another option might be to refer such an issue back to the churches themselves. Btw, I'm just throwing these options around for discussion. I'm going to say it again: if there is no Scriptural way to protect Biblical truth in associated capacity and a church's freedom to be separate from false doctrine and practice, as the Bible commands his churces to protect it, without leaving the assocation, then why do we have an association?
Understood Bro. Jonathan....does the 1,094 churches represented include those who sent no messengers? Because most churches in East Texas (90% ??) are not represented at the meeting. I have preached close to 70 revivals and preached/filled in/presented Israel presentations at numerous churches. Hardly any of them, to my knowledge, practice the things you mentioned. I know heresy is there, but I still would maintain that it's minimal in comparison to all ABA churches.
ReplyDeleteThe heresies you mentioned (accepting alien immersion for example) is certainly a concern and should never happen. I suppose you would want it added to the Doctrinal Statement, which I would be supportive of.
But honestly, drawing lines of fellowship over how a church categorizes itself ("growing evangelical community") or that it has some "contemporary worship?"
Shall we investigate each church's charter members and how they organized? You mentioned this so I assume you would want to do this.
I agree that the trends in some churches toward liberalism is concerning. But almost as concerning is legalism, which I would define as people who think that everyone has to not only believe, but think, practice, and operate just like them.
I don't know if it will make you feel any better, but Baptist History, as presented in the Trail of Blood by Caroll, is full of churches/groups who didn't have the Baptist name nor did they toe the line doctrinally in all areas. Yet don't we see our history as including all of those groups, imperfect as they were? It's either that or embrace Protestantism. I'm not saying this to minimize heresy....I will stand up to it, fight it, and try to associate with those who are like-minded (like you). I will most of the time encourage the church I pastor to send money directly to a missionary's sponsoring church, if possible.
Too long-winded, sorry....but your concerns seem to run so deep and so far-reaching that the ABA would splinter into 100 different groups based on versions, style of worship , what conferences you would attend, etc.
Appreciate your comments, BTW
ReplyDeleteBro. Neal,
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, rejection of alien immersion is already in our doctrinal statement:
"18...Scriptural baptism is the immersion of penitent believers in water, [b]administered by the authority of a New Testament church[/b]in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit..."
However, I do have a question about the wording of it: why did we change the wording of this section from its pre-1993 wording of "We believe that Baptism, to be valid, must be administered by [b]a Scriptural Baptist Church.[/b]"
Secondly, the real-life situation I mentioned about the church organization was an issue of alien immersion (she had Nazarene baptism), not mission methodolgy (whether you must begin as a church or mission which, btw, I don't see as a test of fellowship).
No, I am not in favor of some ABA gestapo, but when a church is known (there is firsthand evidence) that there is a fundamental issue with that church, then yes a discussion about seating their messengers should be brought by the church with that knowledge and discussion started by the messenger body. Nobody here is saying that we have the perfect solution in carrying it out. One problem is that we must balance the need for protecting doctrinal soundness in our fellowship with the sovereignty of churches. Btw, I keep reiterating that church autonomy (independence) is not the same thing as church sovereignty (Church independence says that a church is free to leave the associated work if that work violates her convictions. Church sovereignty says that the church is the soveriegn unit IN associated capacity. It says that associations are only servants of the churches and have no power to make any laws for churches or missionaries (#20 of our Doctrinal Statement) like REQUIRING 20% of a missionary's salary be sent through the Office of Sec.-Treas. of Missions by the sponsoring church). One way we can preserve soundness in doctrine and practice is through our literature. If we have good, sound writers, this can be a big help. Another is that resolutions of censure could be initiated by churches with firsthand knowledge. Resolutions have no power and therefore the offending church would not be told whether they could participate in our fellowship. Another possible option is to refer such a matter back to the churches which would not put the messenger body in the position of telling a church what to do. However, we have another practical problem when our churches cannot even agree on what #19 means (qualified pastors).
You made the statement that if we became concerned (as an association) over versions (which is an issue of what must be the foundation of all doctrinal statements, the Bible, about do we have God's Word (words) today), style of worship (Jesus said we must worship Him in spirit and truth), and what conferences many are attending (which are nothing less than ecumenical alliances) that the ABA would split into 100 pieces. That comment is really disturbing to me. Is the situation that dire in our work? If so, we are in much more trouble than I thought.
Also, I vehemently disagree with the statements "don't major on the minors" and "you can change the method as long as you don't change the message" as they are being used today.
Again, the ABA is by definition a fellowship and something "composed of" churches, so by the Articles of Agreement it doesn't end sine die when the meeting is adjourned. You ARE fellowshipping all those who identify themselves as ABA churches. Bible Scriptures such as Amos 3:3, Romans 16:17, Jude 3, 1 John 1:7, and 2 John 10,11 show us that it does matter who we fellowship with (I know you believe you only fellowship those you actually come in contact with). If we cannot come together on fundamental issues and protect ourselves in a Scrptural manner from doctrinal error (which we are commanded to do according to the Bible) without infringing on church sovereignty, then is an associational body Scriptural?
You & I would interpret Doctrinal Statement #18 as including alien immersion, but a church that accepts alien immersion would surely interpret "New Testament church" as just about anybody. So, no, alien immersion is not clearly stated. Like you, I agree with the earlier wording.
ReplyDeleteBro. Jonathan...if you know of heresies, unscriptural churches, etc. and you are a messenger next year, you can go to the microphone and move for a resolution of censure against that church or confront it in any way that you deem workable. It would be interesting to see what happens...but from experience, there would likely be alot of arguing, then a motion to lay it on the table. I could be wrong, but that's what I would expect to happen.
Question: In the book of Revelation, are associations held accountable for what they do or are individual churches?
Associational harmony is important and can and should be addressed. But continually having a "look at them" "what are they doing?" "where are they going?" "what are they reading?"
"how are they worshipping?" is a sign of a problem as well.
Not saying that's you, btw....I'm sure (at least I hope) your major concern is for doctrinal issues and not church preferences.
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I was wondering. lol. I will ask you this: For example, we believe as Landmark Baptists (or at least the ABA used to be considered a Landmark Baptist association and I hope we still consider ourselves as such) that it wrong to practice pulpit affiliation (to allow someone of another denomination for obvious doctrinal reasons I hope to preach in our pulpit as a lot of SB churches have union Thanksgiving services). Would it not be rather inconsistent for an ABA pastor to attend nondenomiantional conferences? I'm sure you'll agree. I would not fall out with a church over what time the rapture occurs, whether they use fundraisers for youth trips, etc.
ReplyDeleteFor one thing, I used to be just like you and believed that any departures were minimal, but the more I observe, the less and less convinced I become.
ReplyDeleteI too am concerned that too much gets put on the table. I thought that the ABA was unified enough behind Bible convictions that agreeing on the doctrinal statement, resolutions against Promise Keepers (Birmingham in 1997), etc. would be a slam dunk for us.
ReplyDeleteBtw, the resolution against Promise Keepers was passed, but not unanimously and there was an attempt to keep it on the table.
ReplyDeleteI think the current associational structure is a good one. As Bro. Neal stated, the churches that are unscriptural or even heretical are in the vast minority in our association. If our churches and preachers continue to stand for truth, those who fall into the unscriptural and heretical categories will leave.
ReplyDeleteI have a problem with any change in our structure that would give the association the ability to "disfellowship" a church, or refuse to seat that church's messengers. There is historical precedent for this. Such a practice was in place in the BMA of Texas split in 1949 that led to the ABA split of 1950, which resulted in the formation of the BMA of America and the ABA as we know it today. Basically, men who questioned the use of funds that were directed away from the Sunday School fund and the college funds found their messengers unseated at the association meeting. The power was abused (at least, if you believe the Cabin to a Castle account of things as reported by Bro. Albert Garner.)
Give ABA leaders or messengers the same authority, and I gaurantee you that power will be abused again. I'm not criticizing our churches or leaders, I just understand how human nature works.
There is a problem in our associated work regarding harmony. Accusations are being made more often, more severely, and with less care taken, with little or no witness, and this practice is openly tolerated in the name of defending the faith. Or, the heinous charge will be tabled so that we can have a "profitable discussion" on the subject matter of the charge.
A church includes a guitar, or even a praise band in their services, and they "have gone charismatic." (I'm not a praise band guy, I'm just saying.)
A preacher who uses a modern translation, thinking that it is a good, literal translation from the same manuscripts as the KJV (even though he's wrong and it's translated from other manuscripts) has "abandoned God's Word and has denied God's promise to preserve His word, and thus is abandoning the faith."
Any church or any minister who does things a little out of the ordinary (replacing Sunday Night services with small Bible study groups, having two sets of worship services on Sunday mornings because the sanctuary no longer accommodates the growing congregation, the use of youth study programs, and so on), and that church or minister is "compromising." I personally faced the false "compromising" charge several times, and to this day, I have not been told what I did to even warrant the charge being thrown out there.
So, there is a problem in the harmony of our assocation... and until this problem passes, I can see no room for instituting any practice that would result in messengers being unseated and churches being disfellowshipped.
I also echo the sentiment that there are those who get up to the microphones, ask accusatory questions toward missionaries, or start arguments, because they enjoy it. I have no idea if that happened in Springfield, because I didn't go. I have seen it done, though.
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ReplyDeleteIn response to one thing.
ReplyDelete"I have a problem with any change in our structure that would give the association the ability to "disfellowship" a church, or refuse to seat that church's messengers."
How does the phrase "regular baptist" in Article 1 Section 3 NOT do the same thing you claim to have a problem with. It basically states we will disfellowship or refuse to seat a church's messengers if they do not meet the requirement of being a "regular Baptist" church. How is it any different than if it said "regular Baptist church who agrees with the doctrinal statements of the ABA"?
It would in NO way violate any church sovereignty, as fellowship with the churches and church messengers of the ABA is totally voluntary. The churches of the ABA can not, never have and never will tell a church what she must do or practice. The churches can, however, decide not to seat messengers of Catholic churches, Methodist churches, or so called "regular Baptist" churches who disagree with the doctrines which tie the ABA churches together in the first place. How is adding the phrase infringing on ANY church authority? If it is, then we should currently remove the phrase "regular Baptist" as well, and allow catholic's and muslims to join our association, and vote to steal our money, printing press, and everything else.
Bro. James,
ReplyDeleteFirst, let me introduce my response by saying that we are on the same page in that we need some way to protect doctrinal soundness. If there is no Scriptural way that this can be done, then there is no Scriptural basis for having the association in the first place. The ABA is a "fellowship" (2 Corinthians 8:4), and the Bible has much to say about who churches fellowship.
Second, I agree with you that adding "who agree with the doctrinal statement" would change nothing. This is for two reasons. One, nothing in the doctrinal statement or Articles of Agreement are enforceable. Article V says, "It shall exercise no ecclesiastical authority but it shall by every precaution recognize the sovereignty of every individual church." More on church sovereignty later. Secondly, Bro. Richard's position is that it would bring no more clarity than what we already have (since one church interprets different parts of the doctrinal statement differently). Take for instance, #19, which talks about qualified pastors. That causes heated debate even now. What if we added that churches should agree to the doctrinal statement? Still, I believe we need more clarity, even if we take the incremental approach to improve it, and we need harmony as to what we believe (we need to get back to the Bible).
However, we cannot have doctrinal integrity at the expense of church sovereignty (there must be a balance even though I myself have thrown a lot out there in terms of options). In 2 Corinthians 8:23, Paul states the position of associated workers, that they are "messengers of the churches." Jesus said in Matthew 20:25-28: "Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they exercise authority upon them. But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister, And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many." This is the scriptural basis for equal representation: that one church may not lord over another. It is also reflected in #20 of our doctrinal statement: 20. We believe that all associations, fellowships, and committees are, and properly should be, servants of, and under control of the churches (Matt. 20:25-28). I agree that we believe in church autonomy (independence) which means a church is free to leave if she feels that the association violates her convictions, but we also believe in church sovereignty. Church sovereignty means that the church is the sovereign unit in associated work. It means that no one may dictate to a church within the associated work and not just in her internal affairs as a church.
In conclusion, one Scriptural option to fulfill our need for doctrinal integrity is through resolutions of censure against a particular church or a particular false doctrine or practice. This is basically what they did in Acts 15. We can also make additions to our Doctrinal Statement or Articles of Agreement, and as they are both unenforceable, church sovereignty is not infringed.
I'm thinking about making a post on my blog about associations in general. That does not mean, however, that I will get around to it, lol. I think we have about beat the horse to death on this thread.
I find myself agreeing more and more with Bro. Adrian. Is that good? We must realize several things here. Traditions are not scripture. There are some that think i am a heretic because I do not always wear a suit and tie to preach in. I do when I am filling in for someone, but maybe not always at my church. I also see a few that feel somehow that contemporary music is against the scriptures. I guess I am a liberal because I tend to like contemporary music. I think we would all be better off looking at the ministry that God has given us and trying to discern how we can perform that ministry in the confines of the scripture. If you can not prove it wrong by the scriptures, don't prove wrong by your preference.
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