Most Baptist debates occur informally on the internet these days....and with fellow Baptists.
But is there still a place for public debates between Baptists and other groups?
Several years ago, Bro. Michael Reese and I helped organize a debate between a local, loud, challenging Church of Christ preacher and the late Bro. Hoyt Chastain of Oklahoma.
It was difficult to get support for the debate and many ABA folks said, "I don't really believe we should be doing that anymore." Many others were simply not interested in attending.
The debate occurred, some Missionary Baptists attended, many Church of Christ people attended, and I think I gained something from the debate.
Brother Bobby Sparks (who is well known for his Tabernacle sermons) has also debated and from a tape I have watched, I don't know if a Church of Christ preacher will ever get on the stage with him again!?
I suppose my question is this: If challenged by a preacher from another group, or if they regularly "trash Baptists" and everyone else in a local newspaper, should we debate them?
Or just ignore them?
I see nothing wrong with debates - some great preachers including Bro. Ben Bogard, Bro. Albert Garner, Bro. Vernon Barr, Bro. Raymond Alexander and probably several others were effective debaters. It takes a great deal of preparation in Bible study and some skill in tactics to win a debate. I never did hear of anyone changing their belief because of a debate. I had a COC (so-called) minister call me a liar and called my name on a radio program. He spent the following radio time immediately after ours trying to rebut everything I said. If UI hadn't preached first, I wonder where he would have got his material to preach on the radio. Many today prefer ignoring the challenges.
ReplyDeleteThe only one I've heard changing "beliefs" was when Bogard debated an athiest and one night, because of what he said, the atheist was put in jail. Bogard went and demanded his release because of freedom of speech. Because of that action & Bogard's arguments during the debate, the atheist's right hand man or helper was converted.
ReplyDeleteAlso, in the lobby during and after the COC debate, I heard some of their people making comments like "I've never heard it like that before" or "I guess he has a point there..." and so forth. So at least they get to hear the true gospel for a change.
You are right about preparation, Bro. Chastain had a briefcase of materials & trasparencies, most of which he had memorized!
I know Bro. Bobby Sparks considers himself a debater type, but do you know any others in the ABA? (other than previously mentinoed)
ReplyDeleteI heard Bro. Bo Norris (Pastor of Rocky Springs MBC) debate a COC in Crockett, Texas a few years ago and he did well IMO. (Bro. Sparks was sitting with him while the other guy ranted & assisted Bro. Norris).
ReplyDeleteAlso, Bro. Vaughn had a written debate published with a COC (I believe on the subject of hereditary depravity).
Bro. Davy Hobson (pastor of Muse MBC near Grapeland, TX) also had a written, published debate with a COC in one of the local newspapers.
Bro. Sparks is the only ABA preacher with ample debate experience I know of in Texas.
Also, one of the more interesting debates I've heard of was the Ben Bogard / Aimee McPherson debates in California. I have a copy of one of the debates, the one with Bro. Bogard being booed by the charismatics and then having to be escorted out of the building with police protection (just because he used the scripture to address women pastors or spiritual leaders).
ReplyDeleteI would like a copy of the other one but haven't been able to find it. (The debate in which he placed a clear bottle on the podium labeled "Cyanide" and challenged her to drink it if she was really a faith healer and her followers were faith healers. It was only water, btw, which he later said could have been the biggest mistake of his debating life if she had actually drank it!!) Hilarious!
David Proctor dotted eyes of a big mouth coc in Carthage a few years ago...he did an outstanding job and I hope to see him do it again sometime.
ReplyDeleteI would enjoy taking place in debates. I've done so on the high-school debate team, and concerning the faith, I'd love to have formal debates. I just don't think I'd ever be challenged, b/c I don't do anything to put my name out publically as a preacher. I suppose if someone asked me to, I would enjoy doing so.
ReplyDeleteI suppose I enjoy apologetics too. That is probably why I wrote my thesis on defending the existence of God (Biblically, Scientifically, Historically, Geographically and logically), and my Master's thesis on defending the KJV. If I ever get another chance to write another thesis, it'll be in defense of Landmark Baptist views.
ReplyDeleteIf I ever debate, I want James Charles on my side.
ReplyDeleteI have several good debate books, such as Vernon Barr against several COC preachers. A person has to be very careful, though, in agreeing to the proposition(s) to be debated. If a COC preacher is publishing his views in a newspaper, and you simply write or e-mail and express your beliefs, you are almost guaranteed to be challenged to debate.
ReplyDeleteThen a location has to be agreed upon...because you don't want false doctrine preached from your pulpit, and then a proposition agreed to...and then the COC preacher will advertise throughout the area and state and try to get as many in attendance as possible...and then the simplest of matters, such as, which side will lead the opening prayer & closing prayer, or who will be the moderator, the timekeeper, who has the rights to the recordings that are made....these are the kinds details that go into public debating between two groups. It takes a couragous heart and the patience of Job to get that involved.
Bro. Chastain was gentlemanly, yet firm.
Bro. Sparks goes for the throat & keeps squeezing & squeezing until the guy usually wants to "tapout" by Thursday night!
I'll see if I can't arrange something for Bro. Snyde soon...
If challenged by a preacher from another group, or if they regularly "trash Baptists" and everyone else in a local newspaper, should we debate them?
ReplyDeleteOr just ignore them?Brother Neal, I think this may be a question that can be answered differently at different times in different circumstances. Perhaps if a dog was barking at my heels with no apparent effect, it might be well to ignore him; if he begins to actually bite it might become necessary to take action. As you mentioned, I entered into a written debate with Stephen Deaton of Lufkin. I don't think I would ever consider entering a "live" debate -- not because I'm afraid to defend what I believe, but because I am a slow plodder who doesn't think quickly on my feet. I believe a person needs at least some of that quality to be a good debater. Also one must understand that debating is not just discussing the Bible, but also an application of certain techniques that are designed to knock out an opponent. I think there is a place for debates (though it may have been overdone in the past). One shouldn't enter into a debate with an idea that he is going to convince the other side. He should enter in to it with the idea of defending the faith. If someone is convinced of the truth that is just a side benefit.
My debate with Stephen Deaton is online here:
Debate on Inherited SinAs with most debates, I think I got in some good points and he did as well. To some degree the person in the negative has an advantage since his duty is to tear down what the other person is trying to establish (and gets the last say). The debate length was governed by the amount of words we could get on one full sheet of newspaper. We originally planned two debates, one on depravity and one on salvation -- one to be printed one week and one the next. After this agreement, he wanted to change and speed up to get the depravity debate in the paper before the Bonner-Chastain that Bro. Neal mentions above. Afterward we had a car burn up and some other occurrences that kept me busy from working on or even thinking about the salvation debate. Then we closed the church in Nacogdoches and there really seemed to be no point in continuing. In hindsight I suppose I should have, as I have heard that this has been spun as my admission of defeat and unwillingness to debate.
Regarding the McPherson-Bogard Debate, CoC debater David Padfield uses it as a high example of good debating (on Bogard's part) and also takes a shot at modern Baptists: "Out of all the debate books I own the McPherson-Bogard Debate is one of my favorites. Ben Bogard was the greatest debater the Baptist church has ever produced. Bogard debated many of my brethren and always proved himself to be an honorable and worthy opponent. Baptist preachers of our day lack the conviction their brethren had in days gone by."
Are there any books on debate tactics?
ReplyDeleteYes...often you will find more books on
ReplyDelete"public speaking" in general and it will have a chapter or two on formal debate.
One of the best preparations for debate (like we are talking about) is by reading past debates. Arguments or "gotchas" on certain scriptures tend to develop over time and a person doesn't want to become trapped or on the defensive simply because they were ignorant of a certain line of thinking.
For example, COC preachers teach that basically a person is baptized in order to "get to Christ." They usually don't say that batptism saves, but that basically "You are baptized in order to get to Jesus."
Bro. Norris knew that the COC preacher would use this reasoning, so he hammered Rom.6:4 "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death..." along w/ other scriptures to prove that salvation is before baptism. He emphasized the "with him" the whole night and challenged the guy to answer this, which he would not.
Bro. Chastain asked a COC preacher a simple question in one debate: Do you baptize a child of God or a child of the Devil?
After avoiding for awhile & then continuing to be challenged, he responded, "I baptize a person in a transitional phase!"
He, of course, could not defend this & spent the rest of the debate trying to explain this "half-saved, half lost person."
Now, COC preachers are aware of this question and usually respond "I baptize a penitent believer" and won't even bite.
So, past debates are really better preparation than debating tactics, although both can help.
The format usually agreed to is this:
ReplyDeleteMonday & Tuesday One Affirming, One denying the proposition that is agreed to
Thursday & Friday (Same)
Nightly Format 2 hours
Affirm 30 minutes
Deny 30 minutes
15 minute break
Affirm 30 minutes
Deny 30 minutes
TONS of books of debate rules and strategy. Get in touch with your local high-school or college debate instructor.
ReplyDeleteHere is my new blog address
ReplyDeletehttp://bigjblogosphere.blogspot.com
I'll debate you on the subject of putting fleeces out...is it scriptural or not? hahahahaha....love ya brutha!
You mean watching for pink flamingos...
ReplyDeleteI have another fleece now. I'll know "it's time" when Jason Hebert tells me he is a George St. Pierre fan and that he is no longer a pre-tribber!