I have read the book "90 Minutes In Heaven" by Don Piper. I have also read "23 Minutes In Hell" by Bill Wiese. I have always been skeptical of "back from the dead accounts," but the Piper book was intriguing. The fact that his car accident and "death" occurred on the Trinity River bridge (near Huntsville) which I used to travel daily and that he was a Baptist preacher added to the credibility of the book and my interest level. "23 Minutes In Hell" was a bit "over the top," but at the very least, graphically described the horrors that hell likely is.
I have also discussed with an elderly preacher his "after death experience and return" (which he never made public) and found his account and him to be interesting and credible. I still have my doubts and would think that possibly the mind and the imagination is really firing at or near death. But I'm a little more open to the subject than I used to be.
What say ye?
This "gunfighter" came back from the dead after the re-enactment was over....didn't say where he went, though.
ReplyDeleteFirst of all I want to be clear. You will never convince someone other wise of thier experience.
ReplyDeleteWith that being said we know the Bible is the all sufficient rule to our faith and practice. What is best to believe, experience or the Bible?
Let us look at the author of both...the Bible?
God is the author of His Word! He is perfect, Righteous and without error.
Experiences author? hmmm? drugs, alchohol, not enough sleep, bad pizza, emotions, delirium etc.
Which one should we trust? The Bible or Experience?
I choose the Bible!
Not going to argue with your reasoning, my alliterating ally. Does the BIble anywhere deny that one could have an experience like this?
ReplyDeleteyes...to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Abraham told the rich man that there was a great gulf fixed so that no man can cross it (paraphrasing it of course) So that is what the Scripture says.
ReplyDeleteAnything else is bad pizza! lol
Ever wondered if Lazarus had anything to say after he came back?
ReplyDeleteOnce to die... after this the judgment (except for -as with all Bible teachings- the specific exceptions God clearly points out in His Word.)
ReplyDeleteBy the way, I hear much of Master Crain's teaching in you young Padawan Apprentice Hebert. I too was once his Padawan. May the God be with you.
I dont know if that is a good thing...I am loving my systematic theology though! U=You cant argue with the Scripture or with logic. It all works!
ReplyDeleteSo am I to interpret my esteemed brethren as to be saying that it is not possible (never happened, never will) for a person to "check out" for a few minutes and then return?
ReplyDeleteBro. Snyde, are you saying that Lazarus is still alive? The widow's son in the funeral bier whom Jesus raised is still alive? If it's "once to die" in all cases, then old Lazarus is just that...OLD!
ReplyDeleteWould you brethren admit that "a return" is possible, without scripture being violated?
I'm saying Jesus said Lazarus slept. BOOM! What about that! Just kidding. You can't really use that logic with me. That's like saying "If it's all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" in all cases, then sinful Jesus is just that... sinful and short of the glory of God. The Bible is FULL of clear exceptions, but it is ONLY those clear exceptions concerning ANY subject that I'll admit to. Any standing principle or Bible teaching cannot be violated except in those specific and clear exceptions, like Jesus (the exception to almost all scriptures referring to mankind or all men.)
ReplyDeleteConcerning this particular issue, the exceptions I can think about are Enoch, Elijah, and all those who will be raptured (on the "appointed once to die" subject) and on the subject of "after this the judgment, we might include the saints who rose and walked in Jerusalem after Jesus arose, Lazarus, and the two witnesses in Revelation.
Notice, however, another serious principle is being violated. Anyone who "died and came back" to give us their account are violated the principle of NO NEW REVELATION to living mankind except the Word of God. When that (that revelation) which is perfect (complete) is come, that which is in part (the partial revealing) shall be done away.
Then you get into the "why" questions. Why would God allow them to die and then bring them back in the church age? Why would God let them remember? Why would God let non-Baptist men have special empowerment in proclaiming the gospel or some other gospel? Why would God not let this happen more often? etc, etc, etc.
Why would God allow them to come back? Because He is sovereign, brother, and He can do whatever He wants! :)
ReplyDeleteGood point on the NO NEW REVELATION, but I wouldn't think that God would allow them to come back in order to give a new revelation, but because it was His will for some other reason.
Big J, "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" would not preclude someone from "coming back," would it?
You know, absent/present...absent/present and so forth.
Find the "90 Minutes In Heaven" book and read the first three chapters. I believe it's chapter 3 that is pretty interesting. The rest of the book is mostly Piper's therapy and his reluctance to begin speaking about the subject because of naysayers like Big J.
I'm also planning to start holding seances in my home every Thursday night. Dark room, tall candle on heavy wood table, $500 a head to communicate with the departed....
ReplyDeletebrutha...ity seems as though you are elevating the first three chapters of 90 minutes in Heaven to an equal or elevated status than the Word of God. Certainly that wouldn't be the case would it?
ReplyDeleteAs to the case of Lazarus and the others etc...they were all specific miracles that Jesus performed for a specific purpose to glorify himself and to display his power as the son of God.
These coming back for the purpose of revealing or enlightening us to the reality of Heaven or the horrors of Hell is new lightism. This flies in the face of the authority of the Scriptures and I absolutely will take God's Word over an iondividual's experience.
You asked the following, "Would you brethren admit that "a return" is possible, without scripture being violated?" My answer is no a return is not possible because of the truth of God's Word!
However, like I said I would never attempt to tell someone that the experience they had was not real...it is an effort in futility.
C'mon Big J...you know me better than that. Re-read the last three sentences of my post.
ReplyDeleteJust as a thought provoker....what scriptures would definately teach that "a return" is impossible? We will have to do better than "absent from the body, present with the Lord" as that can be answered.....and "once to die after this the judgement" can be answered also. Lazarus died twice, as did others. To my knowledge, the judgement (seat of Christ & Great White Throne ) has not occurred yet.
I've not said that a "coming back" (if possible) is for the purpose of further revelation. I've only said that if this has occurred, it must be for some purpose of God.
I would like specificity...instead of just "NO because of the truth of God's Word!"
I'm not too flaky...I just find the subject a little more interesting than I used to, yet realizing that most of the reports are outlandish, except for a few solid, reputable people like Piper who is convinced of his "experience."
Even though a miracle, and for the express purpose that you stated Big J, where did Lazarus go for those 4 days? Don't you think someone asked him, "What was it like, man?"
ReplyDeletePerhaps he told them incredible things they couldn't believe. Perhaps he couldn't remember a thing. I dunno.
In the situation with Lazarus, and the others mentioned here, we have miracles performed by the Lord.
ReplyDeleteMiracles have been done away with, as has speaking in tongues and prophesying. To say that this is even possible, is to open the door for speaking in tongues and prophesying to still be in existance today.
You dont believe this I know.
I DO know you are not elevating these books with equal status to the Scripture. However, in the end the Bible is the authority not experiences.
Imagine this: A sweet saint of the Lord tells you that this has happened to her. You attempt to show her in the Scripture what the truth is and she says, "I don't care what the Bible says! I know what happened!"
Therein lies the problem with all of life people rejecting the authority of the Bible...goes all the way back to Eden doesn't it?
As for specificity I cannot be more specific except that God cannot lie. In the story of the Rich man and Lazarus ity is expressly stated that no man can come back from the dead. How about the following scripture from the Book of Revelation 22
"And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still."
(Revelation 22:10-11)
What this is saying is that when the end comes you are what you are...lost your lost and saved your saved...there is no coming back once you reach the point of the end.
By the way...this isn't speaking of the end of time...John's vision has already concluded concerning end time things. He even issues one final invitation in v. 17.
Anyway it is just a thought.
Lazarus and the widows son were miracles performed by the Lord for a specific purpose. Every miracle Jesus performed was in the presence of one or more of his disciples. It was for thier benefit.
In the cases you are mentioning it would seem that thiese "miracles" happened for the benefit of all men.
"Once to die" is the emphasis I was giving you, not "after this the judgment." If mankind (with the ONLY exceptions being ONLY those God pointed out clearly in scripture) falls under the truth of this verse, then you are claiming some people have experiences that contradict God's word concerning this.
ReplyDeleteAs to your sovereign statement, I'm hoping it was a joke (but you can't see a smile on the face of the author). If it wasn't, suffice it to say that just because God CAN do something, as you said, doesn't mean He will.
As to the "purpose" God may have, the entire problem isn't the purpose. If God had 100 purposes for someone dying and rising again in today's present age before the Revelation time of two witnesses, and they come back and reveal to us something new (as these authors, and those who tell you about their experience), they are giving new revelation that is not contained in the Bible whether that was God's purpose or not. They are giving new revelation after that which is perfect has already come.
Here is the major reason I'd reject the idea that modern church-age folks live, die, live and die again. #1 - There is no Bible supporting this. #2 - There are many explanations that just as EASILY can be the anwer such as an imagination running wild near death due to adrenaline. #3 - There are a great number of questions it opens up that in my opinion cannot be answered satisfactorily. Anyway, have a great day.
The sovereign statement was a joke and a reference to another thread which we spent considerable time on.
ReplyDeleteI guess the tally is:
1- possible (but not likely)
2- not possible
As far as the thoughts that "a return" would qualify as a miracle, therefore admitting that tongues, prophesying still exists, that seems a bit of a stretch.
I'd like to remind my esteemed friends and scholars that in the movie "Bruce Almighty," after being run over by a truck, Jim Carrey was poked in the chest by Morgan Freeman, thus zapping him back to earth. What other proof would we need to admit some possibilities here?!
Well My Brethren, I do not know how you will disect this, but on the 29th of July this year, I was in the process of haveing my Pace maker changed out and up graded, during the process my heart spopped and I quit breathing for a time I was completetly "Flat lined". there was no visions, No lights at the end of a tunnel, nothihg that I remember. My faqmily said, that We had one scared Doctor, after it was over. BUT, I am here still preaching the Gospel. Marlin Freeman
ReplyDeleteThanks, Bro. Marlin. Glad you're still here. Although you could have made some money perhaps by coming up with something extraordinary. :)
ReplyDeleteBro. James, I tried to post on your blog and it wouldn't allow me. What's up? Am I doing something wrong?
I'm not sure what's going on with my blog. Try doing it again and make sure you are signed in on your blog first. See if that works, and if not, email me at CalvaryYouth@live.com
ReplyDeleteMr. Neal,
ReplyDeleteI would like to get your comments on the problems associated with marriage. I am almost 45 years of age and never have been afforded the opportunity to enjoy and engage in the things which God has ordained and instituted. So many so-called "ladies of the Church" have been anything but that. I don't believe in the term "brushoff". I can't find that in the Bible. But I do find things like lying, deceiving, corrupt, haughty,double-minded, etc.
Sounds to me like there is something wrong with that picture. Was the concept of marriage the same in times of old as it is today? Why will no one try and get to know me? Is it me or them? Maybe I should start being a deadbeat who has a record a mile long. Seems as though these types never have a problem finding a woman. No, I think the proper word should be "female."
I take it that you are not married & perhaps have never been. If that's the case, I understand your need for companionship.
ReplyDeleteAs far as people in the church, I believe that most people in churches would not purposely brush people off, but sometimes people get into routines, perhaps cliques, and fail to see or appreciate visitors or even the great qualities of members among them.
As far as why no one gets to know you, I can't truthfully answer not knowing the situation.
All I can say is...go to church for the primary reason, which is to worship God. Keep trying to get to know others & if it still is cold, perhaps find a place where you can fellowship with God and man.
Oh yeah....don't become a "deadbeat with a record a mile long." That's not what God would have you do with your life.
Not sure who you are, but God bless.
Let me expound on this a little further. I'm sure you have a wonderful family by viewing your profile. How do you think your life would be different without them? I'm sure it would change your entire life. Sometimes we all tend to take things for granted. I am not saying that you are though.
ReplyDeleteI am of the mindset that an individual should strive for everything God has set forth for them in the Bible. I must not accept anything else. With my age, time is not on my side. There is nothing wrong with this philosophy as some may claim. I believe it is implied in the Bible. A person should strive for what they believe in. To not do so would be a sin, I believe.
Let me give you another comparison. Let's say a young person just out of high school is getting ready to go to college. If they are sensible, they will do everything they can to make sure it be be a success and a worthwhile experience. They will check scolarships, housing versus commute, best way to buy textbooks, degree plan, parking, time facor, etc. You could go on and on. The same applies to marriage. I believe a person should do everything in their power to put themselves in the best position possible that they are following the way in which God has set this institution up in the Bible. Someone once told me that it was wrong to visit different churches in hopes of finding a mate. I disagree completely. I suppose the same people would think it would be acceptable to go bar hopping in search of a mate? I would hope not.
If the sole purpose for visiting different churches is to find a mate, I would think that it would be difficult to be the faithful servant and member that a person should be in a local church.
ReplyDeleteYes, my life would be very different without my family. They are my life.
I really don't have any special wisdom...I hope you find a genuine Christian person with whom you can spend the rest of your life.
Your comments have made me more appreciative of what I have (who I have, that is).
Big J,
ReplyDeleteTrue Account: Someone near & dear to me has had an experience. This person was accidentally shot when they were 8 years old.
I won't share the details, but I believe her.
It is possible that there are some things we don't fully understand concerning life & death.
A...I was just piddling around and thought this post was dead but you have livened it up..you have brought it back from the dead.
ReplyDeleteThe only thing I have to say about this is simply that are we going to throw out the truth of the Scripture on the experience of an 8 yr old?
I dont think so...it would seem authority on the matter falls to the Scripture not the experience people have had. When it comes to death, aside from the particular circumstances in the Scripture, the Bible is very plain. The story of the Rich man and Lazarus clearly points this out. Again, the Bible is the authority and God is the author.
Here is the particular scripture...
Luke 16:26-31 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. (27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: (28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. (29) Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. (30) And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. (31) And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
God has revealed in His Word everything that we need to know. To say that there is something new is to border on New Lightism and I KNOW you are not a new lighter.
Just stand on the bible and let experiences fall where they may. This is a black and white issue dealing with experience versus the Bible. Where are we going to stand?
I hesitate to remind my seminary graduate friend about one of the four cardinal questions in scripture interpretation?
ReplyDelete"About what is being spoken?"
The passage in Luke 16 "there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence" is referring to forbidden passage between paradise (heaven) and hell, and vice versa. I can understand you extending that meaning to "once you're there, you're there!" but I don't see that is the point of the scripture here.
Granted, Lazarus' raising was a miracle, and a supernatural demonstration as such (to show God's authority) is not needed today. But Jason, where did Lazarus go during those four days? You have four choices:
1)heaven
2)hell
3)purgatory
4)nowhere (he was just asleep) therefore it was not a miracle
You have set the argument up as experience vs. the Bible. I'm not sure that is a fair set-up in this case. If we are talking about tongues, since the Bible makes it clear what the gift of tongues is (languages), then that would be a fair set up.
Do you know for sure what goes on when a person flat-lines for multiple minutes?
By the way, the 8 year old who was shot, later grew up and met someone who just likes to think about possibilities (of course unless scripture is CLEAR on the subject).
It wasn't a "heaven or hell experience," btw, but I'll let Tracy tell you personally what happened to her when she was 8.
You mentioned about a person flat lining for multiple minutes...at wht point is a person dead? Is it when the heart isnt beating hence a flat line? Or is it at the cessation of brain activity.
ReplyDeleteI assumed it was tracy you were talking about and I mean her no disrespect...as I have said multiple times in this thread that you will never convince the experiencee that their experience wasnt what it seemed...it would be an effort in futility.
I have often wondered what happened with the Lazarus experience...ir where he went...I dont have an answer. But once you are dead you are dead.
I dont think that a person has EVER come back after the cessation of brain activity. I cannot prove this but I assume a google search might provide the answer.
Wikipedia says, "Traditionally, both the legal and medical communities determined death through the end of certain bodily functions, especially respiration and heartbeat. With the increasing ability of the medical community to resuscitate people with no heart beat, respiration or other signs of life, the need for a better definition of death became obvious. This need gained greater urgency with the widespread use of life support equipment, which can maintain body functions indefinitely, as well as rising capabilities and demand for organ transplantation.
ReplyDeleteToday, both the legal and medical communities use "brain death" as a legal definition of death. Using brain-death criteria, the medical community can declare a person legally dead even if life support equipment keeps the body's metabolic processes working."
Once again, I am skeptical of the come-back. But allowing for its possibility doesn't come close to making me a "new lighter."
ReplyDeleteSome things are "black and white," Big J, but this one, for some reason, has become a shade of gray for me. I respect your opinion, as always, but there are too many cases of "come-backs" in the scriptures & in life to completely ignore the subject.
Just so we are clear...I DID NOT CALL YOU A NEW LIGHTER...and you mention that there are too many cases in the Scripture? I only know of two are there others?
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of the two, Lazarus and the Widow of Nain's son, both were miracles that occured prior to the Resurrection.
I contend that these were both miracles that the Lord performed to demonstrate His power over death as the Resurrection and the Life which was specifically stated in John 11.
Now, do we believe that miracles still happen today...if so why do they happen? What is the purpose?
I know of an individual who believes that their eyes were opened, momentarily, and they actually caught a glimpse of a demon that was hovering over them. It scared them out of thier mind. To hear them tell this story is very convincing. Is it possible? To me I say no because, to me, the Scripture is the authority. I may not have all of the answers but instead of saying that God has made an error I choose to say that I dont understand his ways but I know he didnt make a mistake.
Bro. Adrian, I had resolved not to post here since it might appear I am trying to take ABA bloggers down some road not traveled. But I guess I don't have the will power to keep my word. Sorry about that.
ReplyDeleteBig J, you say you only know of two. Assuming you are talking about resurrections or coming back from the dead, here is a list for your consideration. The Bible tells of several people who were raised from the dead.
1. The widow of Zarephath's son (I Kings 17:17-24) raised by Elijah
2. The Shunamite's son (II Kings 4:20-37) raised by Elisha
3. The man tossed into Elisha's tomb (II Kings 13:21) raised by God's Spirit
4. The widow of Nain's son (Luke 7:11-16) raised by Jesus
5. Jairus' daughter (Mark 6:35-43; Luke 8) raised by Jesus
6. Lazarus (John 11:1-44) raised by Jesus
7. Men raised upon Jesus' death/resurrection (Matthew 27:51-53) raised by God
8. Tabitha/Dorcas (Acts 9:36-41) raised by Peter
9. Eutychus (Acts 20:7-12) raised by Paul
There is a possible raising of Paul after he was stoned (Acts 14:19-20; some think II Cor. 12:1-4 is related to this); then there is the strange case of of Saul, Samuel and the witch of Endor (I Samuel 28:7-20; whatever we make of it).
And, of course, Jesus raised from the dead (Matt. 28:5-8, Mark 16:1-8, Luke 24:1-11, John 20:1-10).
Finally, I think the actual point of death cannot be scientifically measured: "...the body without the spirit is dead" (Jas. 12:26).
Brother Adrian,
ReplyDeleteI'll keep this simple and short as possible. Just because something happens in the Bible and just because there are many claims today does not make something so. If this is to be the case, then certainly people still preform miracles and people still speak in tongues. Surely you've seen more examples in the Bible of these than you have "coming back from the dead" experiences. And surely you know there are more who claim and are 100% totally convinced they've experienced these today than those who "come back from the dead."
My argument remains this. If a person dies, goes to Heaven or Hell, sees God, etc., and comes back, that person has seen something not revealed in the Bible. They have been given special and direct revelation outside of the Word. They have been given a vision, or prophecy, or knowledge. The fact is, however, they were given some sort of direct knowledge or intuition OUTSIDE of the Word of God, and it was "in part" or partial knowledge. This type of revelation from God no longer exists today after the Word was completed. I Corinthians 13:9+ proves this through and through. Since "that which is perfect" has come, the completed Word, the mature Word, people have not and DO NOT receive direct partial revelation from God to tell others on this earth, or even to keep for themselves.
If men still received direct revelation in part from God through resurrection, I use the same argument I use towards those who are 100% convinced they receive prophecies or tongues. We should immeidately copy down your words, and add them to the incomplete Word of God.
Bro. James, have you read Piper's account? What if someone's account parallels the Word of God? What if they say nothing that contradicts the Word or even adds to it?
ReplyDeleteIf memory serves, Piper describes the singing/music he heard as the most harmonious & powerfully blended melodies he has ever heard. Does that necessarily contradict or add to God's Word? Is that a "new revelation?"
I read & studied Bogard's "The Golden Key" (I Cor. 13 interpretations) probably before you were born. I agree with his analysis and that we have the perfect Word of God to guide us. But when a preacher "expounds" on the scriptures, he is laying claim to some kind of expertise/expounding ability/knowledge of God's Word. If not, why not just read the Word of God and let it stand alone.
The difficulty in my position is that most of the reports are somewhat outlandish, adding to the Word, as you say. The difficulty in your position and Big J's is that you seem to live in a box. :) Yes, I'm really smiling and trying to needle the seminary saints.
Once again & for the last time, the MANY aforementioned "comebackers" went somewhere and returned. Whether they remembered anything the FACT still stands, that some have come back from the dead. Perhaps not since the Word was completed. But the FACT that it has happened, does not seem to preclude its possibilty today. In areas such as this, saying that something is impossible puts you, seemingly, in the pilot seat with God. KNOWING, for a fact, that this has never happened. That's a bold statement.
I appreciate all thoughts presented here and do give them ample consideration.
ReplyDeleteSo just that we are clear...
ReplyDeleteyou hold to the possibility of near death experiences
I reject that based upon the experience vs Bible argument
I live in the aforementioned LMBIS "Box"
laughing as I type...have we tested fellowship...I think not...are we still dear friends who differ on an idea absolutely!
Take care bro...my dog is no longer in the fight.
I think we have ridden this merry-go-round long enough...if it is possible to come back in some way, rest assured that if I die before my friends J & Snyde, I will be the one causing things to fall of shelves, giving that erie presence that someone is watching over your shoulder, and the reason your T.V. goes out during the 4th quarter of an LSU game.
ReplyDelete"Dog no longer in the fight?" Careful Jason, people go to prison over things like that.
Well, two things. First, since the Bible has been completed and while the church is on the earth today, a person receives NO revelation outside of the general revelation and specific direct revelation of God's Word which is assigned to all men. If God chose one man to whom He would give revelation outside of the Word, that man has received revelation outside of the Word or preaching thereof. Even Piper's account of "harmony" in singing would be something outside of God's Word. Who knows what sounds are like in Heaven? Who knows whether there is even such a thing as harmony. Also, since I'm sure there is only ONE recorded song we know of, the fact that he even heard more than one song shows it was "new" revelation. Anyway, the entire point isn't about new or added revelation, it is that a person can not receive revelation outside of the general revelation (displayed in nature and in men's laws) and specific direct revelation (God's Word and the preaching thereof.) I agree with you, that a person could just study the Word of God completely and gain SO much more than preachers give them. They could not, however, have the experience of study prior to that, thus it is most beneficial to have expounding. The great thing is, however, we are TOTALLY succeptable to preaching error. If we do, the Word of God stands true despite how we expound. The Word is the constant in revelation, not the man or the man's message. Not in the present age.
ReplyDeleteI agree with your general assessment of the situation, brother. No new revelation. But what this means is that there are all the more psycho people in the world, some Baptists, many having common "experiences" of light, comfort and safety....perhaps it's their brains, perhaps it's the comforting power of God's Spirit with them...perhaps they are all liars...
ReplyDeleteI certainly don't believe they are all liars. I believe the brain is EXTREMELY powerful. I know 100% I have been convinced of MANY things that I knew for sure, only to find out I my memory was somehow wrong. Just ask Savannah. She knows for a fact that I DIDN'T say what I know that I did. She also knows she told me things I am SURE she didn't. :-) Anyway, I agree they can gain comfort from experiences, and all good and PERFECT gifts are from above. God may have allowed the mind to do such things for comfort, not for self-deception.
ReplyDelete